European Council

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Leigh]

What is in our national interest—we see it in this Chamber today—is that patriotic Members of Parliament are prepared to speak up for the vital national interest. By speaking out this afternoon, we are actually supporting the Prime Minister in his negotiating stance, because I believe that we stand for what the British people want.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I would like it to be put on the record that, while not many Opposition Members are present, many of them, as well as many Labour party members and millions of Labour party supporters throughout the country, want to see our Prime Minister standing up for this country and making sure that we get some of those powers back. The most important thing that the country wants, however, is a referendum on the whole question of Europe.

[Mr Leigh]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. Her courage, independence and intellect are widely admired throughout Parliament, because hers is a voice that stands up for reason and for democracy. I reiterate what the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland and for Work and Pensions and many of us have said this week. The creation of true fiscal and monetary union throughout much of Europe, with the ability to compel nation states to, in effect, subscribe to particular levels of debt and taxation, is such a fundamental shift of power, that it would be a dereliction of duty, legalism in its worst form and slippery tactics, to say that that does not demand a referendum. We are talking about such a fundamental shift in our relationship with Europe that it would be an appalling attack on the good name of politicians and politics in general if, once again, we were to use mere legalism to say that a referendum is not needed.

I finish by joining my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex and agreeing with what he said when opening the debate. An increasing groundswell of opinion in this country says that we want a renegotiation of our relationship with Europe. We want to concentrate on our traditional strength of having the free trade of goods and people with Europe, which, by the way, is not at risk. It is a complete myth that somehow we will lose that when Europe has a massive balance of trade surplus with us. We want a renegotiation and, having achieved that, let us put the decision to the British people and move forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Emma Reynolds]

I disagree entirely. When our party was in government, we were at the centre of European decision-making, and the truth is that we are not any more.

Six weeks ago the Prime Minister demanded repatriation of powers, yet yesterday, in a 1,000-word article in The Times, in which he set out his position for the European summit, he did not mention repatriation once. We agree that the priority should be given to providing a lasting solution to the eurozone crisis, because we think it is in the national interest, but we also say that Britain should have a strong voice in these negotiations. Unfortunately, because the Prime Minister has tried to face two ways on the issue—on the one hand placating his Eurosceptic Back Benchers and some members of his Cabinet, and, on the other, trying to have a realistic negotiating position with our European partners—the risk is that he will not deliver on either of those objectives. Whereas many Conservative Back Benchers demand repatriation, a split has emerged, not only in the coalition, but in the Conservative party, over the past few days.

[Kate Hoey]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

I will not, because I do not have much time. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that attempting repatriation would be economic suicide, and the Mayor of London and two Cabinet members—the Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions and for Northern Ireland—say that the treaty change would inevitably lead to a referendum, whereas the rest of the Government seem to be saying something quite different.

The fact that the Prime Minister is leading a divided party while negotiating on Europe is very much weakening his hand. By facing two ways, the Prime Minister’s position and the negotiating position of our Government are both confused and confusing. It is no wonder that our European partners are not entirely sure where the Prime Minister stands. It is clearly not in our national interest to have that weak voice and to stand on the sidelines. Splendid isolation is really not that splendid. The fact that we are in the slow lane of a two-speed Europe might chime well to the Eurosceptic ear, but, essentially, it could mean that other member states will take decisions that affect us without our being at the table.

I say to the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) that it is wrong to assume that eurozone members all agree on which direction they want to take regarding better economic co-ordination, because the French Gaullois tradition is an intergovernmental one that is very hostile and suspicious of supranational institutions. There are disagreements within the eurozone countries. We should not just assume that France and Germany agree on these issues.

If the eurozone crisis continues to deepen, it will have serious implications for jobs, businesses and banks in the UK. Our economy is closely entwined with the other 26 members of the European Union, and more than half our trade goes to those countries. Our banks are also extensively linked and exposed to eurozone banks, so it is clearly in the national interest for a solution to be found at the summit. Labour Members want the Government to push for a greater and more decisive role for the European Central Bank and a credible crisis fund with, of course, built-in conditionality. The so-called six-pack package goes a long way to creating credible rules and procedures to enforce those rules, but it is clear that a solution must also be found to tackle the balance of payments and trade imbalances, which several hon. Members have mentioned, between the different eurozone member states. It is also very important to enhance the competitiveness of the weaker economies.

In winding up, I would like quickly to ask the Minister a couple of questions. Why did the Prime Minister promise repatriation of powers six weeks ago and then suddenly drop those demands yesterday? What resources in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office were given to working through options on repatriation, or was that always a matter of rhetoric rather than something really considered in the corridors of King Charles street? Why have the Government been so complacent about the emergence of a two-speed or multi-speed Europe, and what specific reassurances are the Government asking for with regard to the City and the single market? Are the Government seeking, for example, an emergency brake to be extended to the area of financial services? Finally, are the Government hopeful of a fairly rapid treaty change, and what are the risks to the UK and the rest of the EU of a prolonged process of treaty change and ratification?

In conclusion, we want to see the eurozone succeed, because it is clearly in the national interest that a solution is reached. It is not in the national interest to engage in “I told you so” arguments or schadenfreude, nor is it in the national interest for the governing party and the coalition to be so divided on this issue. Our European partners are left scratching their heads about what the Government’s position really is. The Prime Minister should never have promised repatriation of powers, if it was never his intention to deliver on that promise. His promise has entrenched and deepened divisions in his party, as we saw today and yesterday at Prime Minister’s questions.

That is no way to negotiate with our European partners. Our country demands and deserves better leadership, and only then will the Government be in a position to effectively pursue the national interest and start being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Division, isolation and weakness are, in fact, a betrayal of the national interest. My concern is that the Prime Minister will not be able to deliver on even the modest demands that he has set out because of his isolation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

As I said earlier, this is not without precedent. I am not saying that this will happen, but it is an option that has been floated quite openly by a number of European leaders as a possible way forward. Just as there is a negotiation within the eurozone about the measures and mechanisms to enforce discipline, so there is a negotiation with us and fellow non-euro countries. In the course of these negotiations, whichever option is followed we will make sure that our interests are protected. Of course, there is another option, which is to use the existing frameworks and treaties. That option is still on the table.

In the debate, there has been extensive discussion of the repatriation of powers and a referendum. We need to remind ourselves that this is the first Government in British history to have introduced a legislative guarantee of a referendum. The European Union Act 2011 ensures that there is now a legal requirement on any Government to hold a referendum before any agreement on treaty change that transfers competence or powers from the UK to the EU. I have never pretended that the Act is a panacea. It does not address the issue of repatriation of powers and that was not its purpose. It is a guarantee.

There has been some suggestion from hon. Members that the UK should hold a referendum on any changes the eurozone countries may choose to make. I want to reiterate the point the Prime Minister has made on this issue. What the eurozone countries may or may not do is have arrangements between themselves that pool some of their sovereignty. To say that we have to have a referendum in Britain about something that other countries are going ahead with anyway would not only be a rather odd approach for us to take, but it would probably mean that those countries would choose to go ahead in any case but using purely intergovernmental means, however messy and unsatisfactory from their point of view such an alternative might be. That may well yet happen, but holding a referendum on such a treaty would not bring back a single power.

Personally, I could draw up a list of powers—we had the list in the Conservative manifesto at the previous election—that I think are better decided nationally than by the EU. However, we have to be ruthlessly focused on what is most important to our national interest and, at this time, in particular to our national economy. That is why our priority in the negotiations is safeguards to keep the single market fair and open for our most crucial industries, including financial services, to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) made reference.

[Kate Hoey]

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that none of the options that he has mentioned and that might happen is making any real change to our relationship with the European Union? Surely the changes are fundamental and require the will and support of the British people in a referendum.

[Mr Lidington]

No. We do not know the shape, let alone the detail, of any agreement that might be reached over the next 24 hours or longer. The risk alluded to by a number of my hon. Friends, which perhaps lies behind the hon. Lady’s intervention, is that of caucusing. The risk is that the greater economic integration of the 17, and of more countries over time as other member states join the euro, as is still their intention, will lead to caucusing on single market measures, so that the UK would in effect be presented with a “take it or leave it” option. That is certainly a theoretical risk and I do not want to pretend otherwise. The political reality, however, is, first, that that is not how the eurozone countries have operated up till now. We were given similar warnings when the United Kingdom took the decision to stay outside the euro when it was created, but those dire warnings have not been justified by the events of the years since.

Secondly, when I talk to Ministers from the other 26 member states, I find that neither the eurozone 17 nor the euro-out 10 are cohesive or monolithic blocs. Talking to Dutch, German—in particular—Finnish, Austrian or Irish Ministers, one finds that they all very much want the United Kingdom, with its championship of free and open markets and an outward-looking European Union, to be centrally involved in taking decisions. There is not that drive towards a caucus that a number of my hon. Friends fear.