Proceedings during the Pandemic

Debate between Karen Bradley and Kevin Brennan

Tuesday 2nd June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

Oblivion and Nemesis.

I will address amendments (b) to (d), tabled in my name and those of several right hon. and hon. Members, including 15 other Select Committee Chairs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope you will allow me to address my remarks not just to the Chamber but to those Members who cannot be present because of the limitations on space, which you are quite properly enforcing, and who, because of the conditions caused by the pandemic, are having to follow proceedings from elsewhere.

Since the 16th century, this Chamber and its predecessors have been the absolute focus of the House’s life. Our procedures are founded on the principle that everything is done in the Chamber. That is a sound principle. Members rely on face-to-face communication. The word “parliament” comes from the French “parler”. The idea that the Chamber is now not available to many of us is a massive dislocation. Let me be clear: I do not want the measures that we are debating to be in place for a second longer than they have to be to keep our colleagues, our staff and the staff of the House as safe as possible from coronavirus. I look forward to the time when the guidance is relaxed and we can all of us meet here again.

I have to say to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that this is a very uncomfortable day for me. I do not like being badged as a rebel on House business. I am determined that we will get back to a fully physical Parliament as soon as possible. The Leader of the House will recall that I tabled an amendment to slow down the introduction of remote voting on 22 April, which the Government would not accept. I am very much in the traditionalist camp and am on the record as saying that the hybrid arrangements were sub-optimal, so let me be clear: the sooner we are back to normal, whatever that is, the better, for me, but the physical Parliament that we are in today is far from optimal itself. We can have no more than 50 Members in the Chamber and, in fact, 40 Members in the choir seats, as they are called; no bobbing; long queues to vote; very little spontaneity; and so many great parliamentarians absent.

Last night I had a conversation with my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), and he said that I could discuss that conversation in the Chamber. He is a great parliamentarian, a great campaigner and a great champion for his constituents. He wanted to be present today, but his doctor has advised him that he must not be, for his own health. The idea that we decide today to disenfranchise him completely seems to me to be absurd. I very much welcome what the Leader of the House said about tabling a motion to allow virtual participation, but I would like to see a copy of that motion before I make a final decision not to push to a vote amendments (b) and (c), which I tabled and which relate to virtual participation.

[Kevin Brennan]

Is it not a double injustice that the right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) is not only to be disenfranchised by the vote that will be taken today but cannot even participate in his own disenfranchisement because of the nature of that?

[Karen Bradley]

The hon. Gentleman makes exactly the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow made to me last night, and I know how frustrated he is by this situation.

Let me move on to Divisions, because we have had debates about hybrid proceedings and, as I say, I look forward to seeing the Government’s motion, hopefully before the end of this debate. I am an ex-Whip; I have every sympathy with the desire to get back to fully physical voting. That is the way that Whips manage the business and the party, and it is how we Back Benchers interact with our colleagues and with Ministers. But I say to the Leader of the House that we will perhaps shortly have the chance to test the proposals that we have put forward, and I look forward to seeing what Members feel about them.

I back up the comments about deferred Divisions made by the Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg), who is no longer in his place. I support the Government’s bringing forward of changes to Standing Orders that will allow deferred Divisions on Second Reading and other debates, so that we will not have to have so many physical Divisions. I would welcome tests of other forms of voting, but when we introduced remote voting, we did so after we had tested it and tried it; nobody has tested and tried the current proposal for physical voting. Will the Leader of the House please consider accepting the amendment to allow remote voting to continue for a short period of time? We will all work together to find a form of physical voting that we can all be happy with.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karen Bradley and Kevin Brennan

Thursday 16th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I could not have put it better than my hon. Friend has done.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Of course, the people with the greatest interest in careers in the creative industries are the workforce. In those industries, those people are often rights holders as well as workers, so why are the Government continuing to deny membership of the Creative Industries Council to the trade unions? Will the Secretary of State make a pledge now to rectify that glaring omission immediately?

[Karen Bradley]

Membership of the Creative Industries Council is determined by the membership of the council. It is not a Government decision. The hon. Gentleman will be aware, if he has been speaking to the council, that because of the sector deal, any decisions about future membership have been deferred until the deal has been finalised.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Karen Bradley and Kevin Brennan

Thursday 9th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

The important point is that we make sure that Channel 4 has a long-term, sustainable future. That is why we are looking at all options so that we can ensure that a station that relies very predominantly on advertising revenue is able to continue, and to provide the excellent broadcasting for which Channel 4 is renowned.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

When the Secretary of State spoke to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee last year, she said that she would come to a decision in the “nearish future.” Now she says that she will come to a decision “in due course.” I do not know whether the nearish future is sooner than in due course, but this faffing around on Channel 4 has to stop. She has to show some leadership because the uncertainty is damaging its business and our broadcasting industry. Rather than taking a decision in the nearish future, will she now commit to doing so immediately?

[Karen Bradley]

I do not agree that this is affecting the quality of broadcasting that Channel 4 is able to produce. The fact that Channel 4 has committed, for example, to broadcasting the para-athletics, which is being held in London next summer, is a very positive move that we all welcome. I want to get this right, and I am working with Channel 4 and all stakeholders. I want to make sure that Channel 4 has a long-term, sustainable future, and I will report back to the hon. Gentleman as soon as possible.

Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Karen Bradley and Kevin Brennan

2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 31st October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I welcome the Bill’s Second Reading, and I thank the Secretary of State for her introduction. As she said, the Bill has been a long time coming, as it will enable the 1954 Hague convention to be ratified. It has taken only 62 years. Back in 1954, Winston Churchill was Conservative Prime Minister; Gaitskell, I think—my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) will correct me if I am wrong—was leader of the Labour party; and the Liberals had only six seats in Parliament, so some things do not change too much even over 62 years.

The destruction and theft of cultural heritage goes back long before 1954 and even before the second world war, the events of which triggered the Hague convention in the first place. Hon. Members will remember that in 1700 BC the Assyrians invaded Mesopotamia—now called Ramadi and Falluja in Iraq—stole the stone gods of the Arab tribes and took them back to Nineveh to force the Arabs to negotiate to get their gods back. It is a sad fact that the treatment of cultural artefacts in exactly those locations has progressed so little in the intervening 3,500 years. Indeed, it is worse now because of the destructive potential of modern weapons of war.

The previous Labour Government, as the Secretary of State pointed out, put the ratification of the Hague convention on the political agenda in 2004 and published a draft Bill in 2008, which was scrutinised by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. Unfortunately, the Bill ran out of time, but we are pleased to see that the Government agree on the importance of protecting cultural property and of making that priority known to the international community by introducing the Bill. We hope that the principles of mutual respect and co-operation will permeate all Government policies from now on.

Cultural property is targeted because it matters. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), who is in her place, campaigned effectively—as did other hon. Members whom the Secretary of State mentioned—for the Government to introduce the Bill. As my hon. Friend has written,

“art, statues, architecture—these aren’t societies’ frills, but a fundamental part of the fabric.”

She is not alone in that belief. It is shared even by those whose first priorities might lie, correctly, elsewhere. Michael Meyer, head of international law at the Red Cross, has said:

“Why is the Red Cross worried about buildings and books when human lives are usually our focus? I will always argue that a human life is more valuable than a cultural object. But culture is essential to one’s identity. It’s an important factor for communities and nations.”

[Karen Bradley]

I want to put on the record my thanks to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). I failed to do so in my opening remarks, and I wanted to get that on the record.

[Kevin Brennan]

I thank the Secretary of State for doing so. It is characteristically generous of her, and I am sure that my hon. Friend and the House are grateful.

The Hague convention is based on the consensus that cultural property, moveable and immoveable, is central to identity. Such items embody a society’s past and encapsulate its ideas and often its ideals. Because of the consensus on the importance of cultural property, attacks on it in recent armed conflicts have drawn the attention of the international media. Daesh’s destruction of Palmyra and al-Qaeda’s demolition of mosques and mausoleums in Timbuktu have, quite rightly, sparked international outrage. For those who live in areas of armed conflict, the destruction of cultural property adds another layer of pain to the process of recovery in terms of both money and morale. Cultural property is a precious resource. When conflicts are over, monuments and their equivalents are key to kick-starting tourist-related industries, so cultural property can be crucial to economic regeneration.

Asian Restaurateurs (Immigration Enforcement)

Debate between Karen Bradley and Kevin Brennan

Wednesday 2nd April 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mrs Osborne. I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Security and Immigration, who would normally attend the debate; he is in the main Chamber dealing with another matter. He has not yet worked out how to be in two places at once, but we are training him.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) on securing the debate, which has been very interesting, and I have listened carefully to the points made. We have heard a range of views on the subject of illegal working, and I will respond to each in turn. Before I do so, it might be helpful for Members if I set out the background to illegal working and enforcement visits.

I make no apology for the enforcement of immigration laws. The message we have heard today seems to be that that view is supported throughout the House. The British public expect the Home Office to enforce the law and to remove those persons who have no legal entitlement to live or work in the United Kingdom. We are committed to tackling illegal working, because it sustains illegal immigration, fuels organised crime and encourages migrants to put their livelihoods at risk and place themselves in the hands of people who exploit them. Illegal working also undercuts legitimate businesses, as rogue employers typically undercut the national minimum wage and avoid national insurance contributions.

The Government take, and will continue to take, tough enforcement action to arrest, detain and forcibly remove those who are breaking the law by living and working in the UK illegally. Immigration enforcement does that by conducting intelligence-based operations to target illegal immigration, illegal working and the criminality that supports illegal immigration. We will also act against those who support and fuel illegal activity. That is why we have laid before Parliament new regulations that will double the maximum penalty for employing an illegal worker from £10,000 to £20,000. We are also taking action via the Immigration Bill to simplify the process of receiving unpaid penalties.

Illegal working occurs in a wide range of businesses across the UK, and immigration enforcement targets known offenders, and acts on intelligence received to target businesses believed to be employing illegal workers. We also conduct follow-up checks on past offenders to ensure that they continue to be compliant. The catering trade receives a significant number of enforcement visits, but that reflects the intelligence we receive and the prevalence of immigration offences in a low-cost and highly competitive sector.

The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) asked for the statistics regarding the visits. In the UK as a whole, of the 7,904 illegal working visits carried out by immigration enforcement last year, around half—3,972—were carried out at restaurants or takeaways. In Wales, from 1 January 2013 to 31 December 2013, 665 illegal working visits were conducted by enforcement teams, from which there were 379 arrests. The number of visits to restaurants and takeaways was 434.

I recognise the disturbance that may be caused to a business when an enforcement operation is undertaken, especially during peak times, and especially if no offence is encountered. I sympathise with the concerns raised; my parents are publicans, so I understand that, when someone is running a business, they want to do so as effectively, and in as hassle-free a way, as possible. However, the busy times are when we are able to maximise the likelihood of achieving a successful outcome. In the 7,904 enforcement visits made last year in the UK, we made a total of 7,274 arrests. That shows that our actions are warranted and successful. Our actions are based on intelligence, and immigration officers are carrying out their statutory duties to investigate that intelligence. We make every effort to verify the strength of the intelligence received, but inevitably there will be some operations where no offender is encountered.

Immigration enforcement staff have a difficult job to do, but it is best done in co-operation with others, as Opposition Members have said. I would like to highlight the good relationships and constructive dialogue that have been established by immigration enforcement staff with Asian restaurateurs to keep them informed of their work and purpose, and to equip them with the knowledge to recognise and deter illegal working, so that they do not unwittingly employ illegal immigrants.

[Kevin Brennan]

In that case, why did immigration officials withdraw from the meeting last week at such short notice? Why did they become so difficult for my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) to contact?

[Karen Bradley]

I cannot answer specifically on that meeting, but there is an excellent relationship with the Bangladesh Caterers Association. That is a prime example of the relationship that officials have with restaurateurs. Regional events take place regularly involving both immigration enforcement and the BCA. The previous Immigration Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), met the London Chinatown Chinese Association, which agreed to co-operate with us. We offered it help, saying that if it co-operated with us and helped us to identify illegal workers, we could then speak to those workers instead of conducting raids at peak times. That relationship has since been working well.

[Karen Bradley]

I conducted lengthy discussions with officials in preparation for this debate, and I have been assured and reassured that officials are working hard with the bodies that represent restaurateurs, and that there is a great deal of co-operation between, and a desire to co-operate on, both sides. We want to make enforcement work.

It is undeniable that, in the industry, there is opportunity for the exploitation of workers who are here illegally, which we need to deal with and tackle. However, the hon. Lady is absolutely right: the best way to do that is by co-operation, which we are actively ensuring. Where concerns have been raised by restaurateurs—for example, regarding simplifying documentation checks for overseas workers—we have considered them and sought to introduce change where appropriate. For instance, we are reducing the list of documents that employers have to present at right-to-work checks. The first changes will be introduced at the end of April. In the longer term, we intend to focus the checking system for non-European economic area nationals on the biometric residence permit.

While employers sometimes raise concerns about our approach, there is also broad support from legitimate employers for proactive enforcement action against rogue employers, who are competing unfairly against them. Like the rest of the public, legitimate employers have concerns about illegal immigration and support the aspirations of hard-working people from the UK. They experience at first hand how businesses are undercut by illegal cost-cutting activity, and recognise that it is often associated with exploitative behaviour such as tax evasion and harmful working conditions.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Karen Bradley]

I will not, only because we are running out of time, and I want to address the specific points raised.

We expect to see continued and greater co-operation from the restaurant industry on employers investing in training and embracing the use of resident labour. The Migration Advisory Committee has repeatedly expressed its disappointment at slow efforts by the sector to train more chefs.

Turning to points raised in the debate, the hon. Member for Llanelli asked whether there was justification for visits, and asked whether there was perhaps a lack of oversight and guidance. One issue was identified by the report; we have discussed this, and the Home Office is already aware of that and is acting on it. No letters were issued or authorised without justification since the report, and the power is now being used correctly. The hon. Lady also asked about joined-up working—about Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Home Office making separate visits, for instance. She is absolutely right: joined-up working is an absolute priority for the Home Office. We are focusing on streamlining the different agencies looking at illegal working to ensure that the number, and therefore cost, of operations is minimised.

The hon. Lady asked about the substantive grounds for some operations. Every operation is based on the intelligence that we have at the time, but intelligence is not always perfect. We work on very fine intelligence, but have a statutory duty to investigate allegations if we believe them to have a foundation. If we did not follow those allegations up, we would be criticised for it.

I am pleased to say that the majority of people in the country agree with the Government and want a robust stance on immigration and illegal activity. Our illegal working operations must be seen in the wider context of the reforms of the immigration system under the Government. Our tough reforms are carefully targeted, and we will continue to work hard to bring net migration down from the hundreds of thousands to the tens of thousands by the end of this Parliament, and to create a selective immigration system that works in our national interest. Put together, our engagement with local communities, enforcement activity and reforms will ensure that individuals who have no right to work or live in the UK are encouraged to comply with the rules and depart voluntarily, but individuals who partake in illegal activity or harbour those who do will always be sanctioned in line with UK law.

I am grateful to have had the chance to listen to the hon. Member for Llanelli and others today. I thank her again for securing this debate and will reflect further on the points made.