Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Julie Hilling

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

When I listen to the Government, I wonder what world they live in. It certainly is not the world of the 2,400 tenants of Bolton at Home or the 4,500 tenants of Wigan and Leigh Housing who are facing unaffordable bills because the Government have decided that the poor should pay the price for the wrongs of the rich.

The Government have a fundamental ignorance about social housing and a thoroughly disgraceful attitude towards people who, through choice or circumstance, are living in council or housing association properties. They seem to think that it is a negative choice and that everyone, whatever their circumstances, should aspire to own a home. It is as if they have learned nothing from the sub-prime catastrophe.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Julie Hilling]

I will not because other Members want to speak.

Social houses are homes: homes that are usually occupied by people who cannot afford to buy a house because they do not earn enough or because they cannot work; homes that people live in for many years; homes that tenants lavish care and attention on; homes that they hope to live in until they choose to downsize to a flat or until they die; homes that their children may move back into when they finish university or when relationships break down; homes that families come to visit and where grandchildren come to stay; homes that are part of a community that benefits from stability and from established residents who make a contribution.

The Government do not seem to think about homes and communities, but merely about spare bedrooms. When they talk about overcrowding, they do not look at where the so-called spare bedrooms are and where the overcrowding is. Unfortunately, the two do not match. They also do not consider who will lose out. What they are doing is like shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. They are simply moving the problem, not solving it.

Bolton and Wigan do not have spare one and two-bedroom properties, so tenants will have to starve or freeze to pay the additional rent, move to the private rented sector or be evicted for arrears. The Minister suggests that people should work more hours. If only it were that simple in Tory-Lib Dem Britain to get a job. Even if people can get a job, the Minister ignores the fact that every time people earn more money, they lose benefits. How will that help to cover the gap?

The Minister also says that the measures will drive down housing benefit costs. Wigan and Leigh Housing has done its own modelling. If about a quarter of its tenants moved into the private rented sector, there would be an additional cost to the Department for Work and Pensions of more than half a million pounds. It also estimates that the cost to Wigan and Leigh Housing would be more than £10 million, which would come from a different public purse. That includes £1.4 million for the adaptation of new homes for the disabled and £300,000 for rent collection. This measure will, of course, affect other tenants as well as the ability of housing associations to repair and maintain housing stock, and it will prevent them building new homes. One housing provider has said that it will lose one new build a week because of the cumulative affect of welfare reform.

Government Members like to throw out the accusation that the previous Labour Government introduced the same policy for the private rented sector with the local housing allowance, but they should stop listening to their own spin. The LHA was tested for four years before it was introduced and did not apply to existing tenants but just to new claimants or people moving house. It did not specify how many bedrooms people should have, but allocated a sum of money based on the median rent for properties of the relevant size. Therefore, if a family found a house with more space for a lower rent, they could move in. The size of the housing benefit bill is due to the cost of private rents, not social housing. However, the Government will not do anything about fair rent and instead just reduce the chances of ordinary people to find houses. I also wonder when Government Members last visited a council house and looked at the size of the so-called third bedroom. Often, it is a room that barely fits a bed and would be unbearable for two teenagers with no space to do homework or hang up clothes. It is certainly not the sort of space that a lodger would want to rent.

My hon. Friends have mentioned the difficulties of expecting children with vastly different ages to share a bedroom, and the difficulties experienced by families with a disabled member. Let me lay out the nature of the Government’s policy. A family with two children under 10 in a three-bedroom house will now need to move to a two-bedroom house. When a child turns 10, they will need to go to a three-bedroom house but if one child moves out, they will have to go to a two-bedroom house. If both children move out, they will have to move to a one-bedroom home, but what about if one child wants to come home? What about the cost of this measure? Will children have to move school? What happens to the community? This policy is nonsense.

Others have spoken in detail about the situation of separated couples, but I have one question: will mothers allow their children to stop with their father overnight if the father is in a bedsit and the child has to share a bed with dad or sleep on the couch? The Government just have not thought this through.

I have already spoken in this House about Isabel and her son Carl who has Down’s syndrome, so I will finish by talking briefly about two people who came to see me last week as a result of my asking the Prime Minister whether he had ever met anyone who was losing their home because of the bedroom tax. The Prime Minister replied that he often met service people in his constituency, although he did not tell us whether they were losing their homes. Stephen and Bill came to see me because they are ex-servicemen.

Stephen and his wife told me that for them this policy feels like persecution. Stephen served for 17 years in the Air Force and then continued to work. He became ill and lost his house; he has had two back operations and has irritable bowel syndrome. His wife is suffering from depression. Stephen has been in his council house for 22 years and told me that he feels that he has made a huge contribution to this country and cannot understand why in his hour of need the country is turning its back on him.

I cannot talk about all of the situation of the other person, Bill, who came to see me, but he lives in an adapted house with a carport, ramp, walk-in shower and stair-lift. Bill is disabled, has anxiety and depression, and IBS. He lives close to his family and gets support from them—and he gives them support; his son is serving in Afghanistan. He is anxious about the bedroom tax and is trying to be proactive, but because of his needs, accommodation is limited. Bill says that the only thing he has to live for in his life is his fishing and he is worried to death that he will not have room for his fishing gear in any other accommodation. He is considering suicide.

This is not scaremongering; it is the reality of people’s lives.

Emergency Life Skills

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Julie Hilling

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I commend this fantastic speech. I raised the same subject in a Backbench Business debate recently, and I know at first hand what a difference it can make. On the specific point about PE, the actual training required is the equivalent of just one PE lesson. Therefore, while we acknowledge that the Government are trying to streamline the national curriculum, we are not asking for very much, but it can make a real difference.

[Julie Hilling]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. He has had personal experience of the need for emergency life skills, and I am very pleased that we can work together to try to get this issue higher up the agenda.

Smithills school aims to widen the scheme so that, during the school holidays, parents and siblings are able to learn these vital skills, too. The teacher responsible, Adrian Hamilton, told me that learning how to save a life in an emergency really engages the kids. He believes that ELS go a long way towards helping them become better citizens, and that learning ELS should be an expected part of what happens in schools.

The Government talk about wanting to compare themselves internationally, but ELS are already a compulsory part of the curriculum in France, Denmark and Norway. They are included in a number of states in Australia, and in the US they are part of the curriculum in 36 of the 50 states. Seattle is supposed to be the best place in the world to have a heart attack. It is impossible to get a driving licence or graduate from school in Seattle without being able to do CPR. Imagine a situation where one is rarely more than 12 feet away from somebody who can save a life. I hear, though, that there is a down side, because it is a very bad place in which to just faint.

Schools deliver ELS in a variety of ways and settings. Commonly, pupils enjoy the lessons, which increase confidence and self-esteem, and which are particularly important for children who have special educational needs. Sheringham Woodfields, a school for children with complex needs, told the Education Public Bill Committee about the enormous sense of achievement its pupils feel when they realise that they can save a life. One of its pupils received a bravery award when he saved somebody in the Norfolk broads. One of the most telling submissions to the Public Bill Committee was from Archbishop Ilsley Catholic technology college in Birmingham, which told us that it decided to teach ELS after a parent died from a heart attack in front of his family. The school felt that something positive should come from that tragedy. St Aidan’s primary school in St Helens told us about a year 6 child who was in a restaurant with her parents and 15 other adults when her eight-year-old brother started to choke on his food. He went blue and virtually collapsed at the table. All the adults stood around not knowing what to do, but the year 6 child jumped into action, put her training into use and saved her brother’s life. If she had not been there, 15 adults might have stood by and watched a little boy die in front of them.

I do not have time to list all the things that people have told me, but a common theme is that children who were taught ELS went on to practise them and either saved the lives of family members or helped in serious situations. A couple of weeks ago, I was in a meeting with Tabitha. When Tabitha was 17, a week before the summer holidays, she ran to join her friends and teachers during a fire drill. She does not remember anything else that happened, but apparently she collapsed with heart failure. She had been born with a congenital heart condition, but no one knew about it. Fortunately, her school secretary had been taught CPR, which they administered until an emergency responder and then paramedics arrived. Tabitha made it to hospital with all of her facilities still intact. She had emergency surgery and made a full recovery. Tabitha is now a voluntary emergency responder and is working hard to get ELS taught in schools.

I also met Beth at the same meeting. Beth is the mother of Guy Evans, who sadly died at the age of 17 in 2008. Guy was riding his motorcycle when he had a sudden cardiac arrhythmia. He fell off his motorbike and laid there while his friends stood around not knowing what to do. They were told by the 999 operator not to touch him—people thought that he had had a motorbike accident. If only they had been taught emergency life skills, they would not have faced the trauma of watching their friend die and experienced the trauma of living their lives with the thought that maybe, if they had known what to do, Guy would still be alive. Beth has been campaigning ever since to get ELS into the school curriculum and into driving tests.

Cardiac arrest does not discriminate between young and old, or between gender and race—it can happen to the very fittest of us. On average, heart attacks are suffered by men in their 50s, and so should be of keen interest to many MPs in this House. On average, it takes approximately five to 10 minutes for an emergency ambulance to arrive. For every minute that passes in cardiac arrest, the chance of survival falls by 10%. CPR increases survival and prolongs the time a person remains shockable. If a defibrillator is used to administer a shock, the survival rate increases to 50%. When we watch “Casualty”, it looks as though CPR is actually the thing that makes people suddenly wake up—it is not. CPR keeps blood and oxygen pumping around the body, which means that the heart can still be shocked back into a rhythm. All the time that people are not breathing and their hearts are not pumping, parts of their body and brain are dying. CPR keeps people alive and keeps them going until they can be shocked, and until they can get to hospital.

I have been told about a mother who collapsed at the school gates. Instead of everyone standing around not knowing what to do and watching her die, children sprang into action and administered CPR. The school brought out their defibrillator, which they had purchased for £1,000, and saved the mother’s life. Just last week, 15-year-old Patrick Horrock had a heart attack in Hindley leisure centre, which is just next door to my constituency. A member of staff performed CPR and another used a defibrillator to restart his heart. Patrick is alive and well because people knew what to do and had the tools available to do it.

I had a meeting with some local firemen last week. They are Heartstart tutors and deliver classes to adults and young people in the fire station. They told me that approximately 7% of people know any first aid. Together, we are going to take ELS into local schools. They told me that two young people had been involved in saving a dog. As their reward, they were invited to the fire station for the day. The thing that those kids enjoyed most during that day was learning how to do ELS. It is something that children enjoy doing—it enhances them and gives them the confidence to save a life.

The firemen told me something that really made me think. One reason why we do not act when someone collapses is because we are scared of making things worse. Has their heart really stopped? Am I going to do them damage? The firemen told me that if a casualty stops breathing, “They are dead, and you can’t make them any deader.” That phrase resonated with me. If we do something, we may be able to save that life; if we do nothing, they are dead.

As the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) has said, CPR can be taught in two hours. That is the equivalent of one PE lesson—one cross-country run, or two hours a year. That is something like 0.2% of national curriculum time. Surely we can afford that amount of time to save lives.

I will end with a statement from Abbey Hill primary and nursery school:

“A lot of our children are brought up in an extremely deprived area and are not always adequately supervised. ELS gives them the confidence to deal with an emergency, should one arise, and no adult was around...The silence in the room when the children are watching the DVD from the resource pack is remarkable! They watch it avidly and are always keen to take part in the sessions. They are also very impressed when we get the dolls out to practise resuscitation and can't believe they get to have a go on a ‘real live’ doll!”

I could say a great deal more, but I will finish. I ask the Minister to put emergency life skills in the national curriculum. If he will not, what will he do to promote the teaching of emergency life skills in schools and throughout the whole of education, in youth centres, colleges and community colleges? Will he also encourage the Government to think of other ways of embedding such skills in society, perhaps as a compulsory part of the driving test?

It is frightening to think that something like 7% of the population believe they could save a life. Many of us have done life-saving—I did it many years ago—but do not feel confident about using those skills. However, having now had less than half an hour with a dummy and looking at what to do, I now feel that I could do something—I could get that defibrillator off the wall, because instructions on exactly how to use it are written on the packet.

We need people in this country to feel confident about being able to save a life. I ask the Minister to consider that we could save 150,000 lives a year—just think how many lives that would add up to over anyone’s political career. I hope that the Government will do something—they could go down in history as a Government for saving people’s lives—and I urge them to do so.