Infant Class Sizes

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Wednesday 3rd September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris). It was interesting to hear him draw on his experiences on the Public Accounts Committee. That was a good contribution.

I disagreed with the hon. Gentleman fundamentally on one point. He said that education should not be the same throughout the country. Of course, he was right about that. However, education never has been the same everywhere in the country and it certainly did not become the same under the last Labour Government. We actively supported specialist schools and introduced academies. Far more choice was generated by the Labour Government than we are given credit for.

Although neither the hon. Gentleman nor the Opposition want education to be exactly the same, one thing that we do want to be the same is the opportunity for all children. That, plainly, is not the case at the moment. Equal opportunity is not afforded to all children regardless of their background. That is why this debate counts. It is not about a very small area of the garden. We are talking not just about infant school class sizes nudging up over 30, but about what that means for the future. We are talking not just about the children who are now experiencing education in very large classes, but about what that means as it continues. I remember being at school in the ’80s under a Tory Government—we are all talking about when we were educated—when class sizes were much larger than they are now. I do not wish to see that for children who are currently in infant schools. When they get to secondary school, will they still be taught in classes that are larger and larger? The detriment is exaggerated as a child gets older.

I am particularly concerned about this matter because I see the huge disparity between the outcomes for the 7% of children who are privately educated, with the opportunities that they can access—they do very well—and the outcomes for the 93% of young people who are educated in state schools. That issue has been well debated. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission has had a huge amount to say about the critical role of education in providing better opportunities to kids from all backgrounds.

According to the OECD, state primary schools have class sizes with four or more pupils larger than those in independent schools. The difference in secondary schools is significantly worse. Average class sizes in UK state secondary schools are more than double those in independent schools at 21.1 compared with 10.

[Justin Tomlinson]

The hon. Lady is giving a characteristically great speech. I agree with absolutely everything that she has said. Will she therefore explain the logic of the last Government cutting 200,000 places, thus denying people opportunity and choice?

[Jenny Chapman]

When I consider the issue I look at what is happening now, and numbers in my constituency have risen by 66%—66% more infant school pupils are being taught in classes of more than 30. That is happening now, and I am interested in what the Government will do to fix it.

I am a bit like some of my colleagues who said that they did not want to upset the shadow Secretary of State—of course I do not want to upset him. I do not think he would be upset by what I am about to say, but I do not produce a lot of antibodies at the mention of a free school. In Darlington we have a school that is a free school in name only. It was established by a local academy that wanted extra provision for pupils with special needs. We are a pragmatic bunch in Darlington and will go where the money is. These days, if we want capital money, we make ourselves a free school—“Thank you very much, we’ll have one of those.” We have that and it is going fine. There was not a peep out of me as a Labour MP or the Labour council. We will get on with it, and if it gets us the outcomes we need for young people in the town, that is what we will do.

We have another free school that is a little more unusual because it is a private school that decided it would like to become a free school. That got me scratching my head a little—I think that finances may have been a little tight, which may have focused its mind on that transition. However, as a good socialist, the opportunity to take away a fee-paying school and make education available to all was not something I was going to let pass by, and I have worked with those trying to set up the free school and wish it every success. It will be relatively small and will help to provide the additional places that we may need in Darlington, particularly for primary education.

I have listened to colleagues from different parts of the country and it is clearly not the experience everywhere that the additional resources—scarce though they are—are following the additional need. That is where our objection lies. This is not about governance. We are quite relaxed about different forms of governance in education, as we can prove by our record. It is about ensuring that we spend the money where it needs to be spent, so that we do not end up with class sizes creeping up slowly over time.

Financial Education

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely spot on with that point and I am just about to come on to it.

We have already had a number of debates in this Chamber on debt management companies, doorstep lending and payday loans. In fact, on annual percentage rates, we have already seen worrying evidence that consumers often think the higher the APR, the better. When people take out loans, they are not necessarily taking them out for a simple 12-month period. Most people could probably calculate 10% on a £100 loan, but it becomes complicated. Sometimes, the high-interest rate loans can be better than what people think is a safe bet. A good example of that is someone who wishes to borrow £100 for two days. They can borrow it from one of those well-known payday lenders who charge 4,635% plus £5.50 for the product fee, or they can go into their unauthorised overdraft facility at their local bank, which will charge them an understandable flat fee of £10 a day and a £2.50 fee for the privilege of using their debit card. Nearly everybody would accept the bank’s offer, because it is understandable.

[Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

I feel obliged to intervene, given that my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) is not here, but how many people does the hon. Gentleman believe sit and make the calculation when they are working out whether to take a loan from Wonga? How many of them does he think roll over their loans at the end of the borrowing term?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention and that is exactly the point. It is so complicated. In my example, the bank was not the right option, but on many other occasions, it would be the other way around. The majority of consumers cannot calculate the interest rates to make those informed decisions. The market benefits from that and targets its marketing to take advantage of the situation.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Debate between Justin Tomlinson and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Chapman]

That is an excellent point, with which I shall finish my remarks. I am aware that many colleagues would like to contribute and, having heard my hon. Friend’s comprehensive speech, I will allow others to do so.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I welcome the opportunity to debate this new clause. I have worked with the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on a number of occasions to highlight the need to protect the most vulnerable people in society, and we have been supported by hon. Members from both sides of the House. Let us be clear that a consensus is essential, as has been said by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley). This is an extremely complex and challenging issue, and although we all agree that action must be taken, we need to be careful not to make the situation worse. I will set out a number of reasons why that could happen.

The new clause would require the Government to review how taxation could be used to penalise high-cost credit that is detrimental to consumers and competition. However, the current consumer credit review is examining all the options through which we can hope to secure a measured and effective response. I first wish to highlight the need to use credit reference companies, because it is unacceptable that so many of these loan companies do not even simply check whether the person borrowing the money can actually service the debt. We would all agree that we are not against people borrowing money if that is what they wish to do, but they should have the opportunity to be able to service that debt. Secondly, we need to limit the number of customer extensions and roll-overs, as a number of hon. Members have said. It is unacceptable that people can be trapped into a cycle of increasingly expensive debt. Thirdly, there needs to be a cut-off point, when fees and the interest stop being accumulated. Too often we have seen people borrow a relatively small sum that has built up over many years. Many horror stories have been related in previous debates.