Finance (No. 2) Bill

Julie Hilling Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The coalition is, I am sure, united at the highest level, but that does not mean that Back Benchers do not sometimes disagree. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and I often discuss these matters, and we do not invariably agree on every aspect of them. The Lib Dems have their own particular policies, which they will no doubt put forward in an election campaign, but the coalition at large is committed to a single policy.

I want to come back to the amendment, which is about getting back to the 50p rate. We already have a situation in which the top 1% of taxpayers pay nearly 28% of the total income tax receipts—that is, £50 billion. If the rate of tax is put up to too high a level, people will change their behaviour to alter the amount of tax they pay. That is very straightforward, and they can do a number of things. Some people leave the country, so that their tax is paid overseas. Some work less hard, reducing their earnings to reduce their tax payments. Some use pension funds or legitimate forms of tax avoidance to minimise their income. That is all perfectly well known by those on the Opposition Front Bench, who are a fine and intelligent group of people, yet they try to make political points on the argument about fairness. Fairness seems to me to be about doing what is right.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

It seems to me that the argument is not that we should reduce tax so that people will be kind enough to pay it; rather, we should be looking into closing down tax avoidance schemes. We should be presenting the moral case that everyone should be paying in according to their ability to pay, particularly in these difficult times.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

However much we tackle tax avoidance, if we set tax rates at so high a level that people decide not to work, no legislation can force them to work to earn more. Unless we want to be like the Russia of the 1980s, we cannot pass a law to prevent people from leaving the country to work elsewhere if the taxes are too high here.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Lady almost makes my argument for me. In 1979, that hallowed year in which the great lady to whom she referred came to office, the highest rate of income tax was 98%, and the proportion of income tax revenues paid by the top 1% was about 10%. When the rate fell, the proportion paid by the top 1% went up, so more money came from the richest in society when rates were lower. Lower rates of taxation therefore resulted in the advantage of an increase in revenue for the Government and the ability to spend more on the services deemed necessary.

This argument was proved in 1979 when the rate went down from 98% to about 60% and again in 1988 when it went down from 60% to 40%. On both occasions, the amount of tax revenue increased because people were willing to work harder and people were attracted to work in this country—so the burden was, indeed, put on to the shoulders of those best able to bear it.

An argument is made about fairness. We say it is fairer to have a high rate of tax. We say that that is symbolically right—that we should have it so that people know they are doing something difficult and we are all in this together—but what is the symbolism of saying to people we will take less tax from them, and what is the symbolism of having lower revenue for the Government?

[Julie Hilling]

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs says that in the one year when the 50% tax rate applied, revenues went up—the figure it is currently giving is £1 billion. It is therefore difficult to argue that we should get rid of this tax rate, especially as we do not yet have all the evidence. We are only beginning to get the evidence now, because people are paying that rate now.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

In fact, HMRC came out with figures showing the tax paid by the highest taxpayers declined; there was a loss in revenue of £6 billion, I think. I would prefer to take the actual figures that come in. I may be disloyal on this point—for which I hope those on the Treasury Bench will forgive me—but I think that forecasts from Her Majesty’s Treasury are absolutely useless. We do not want to go on economic forecasts; we want to follow facts, and the facts on the revenue that has historically come in make it clear that lower rates increase the tax take.

[Julie Hilling]

It is my understanding that, although tax takes went down in the first year when people could pre-pay and will definitely go down in this year when people will post-pay, they rose in the middle year, which is the one full year when the rate has applied, and for which people are now paying their taxes.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The problem with that argument is that we have facts that show that the amount of revenue has gone down. Over a three-year period it has gone down very substantially, because the rate was high. The hon. Lady’s comments also serve to illustrate the following point on my behalf, for which I am grateful: when tax rates are raised, people change their behaviour so that the tax they pay is reduced. That is where the Laffer curve comes in. Income is reduced when tax rates are too high.