Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords]

Debate between Julian Huppert and Kerry McCarthy

Monday 15th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Huppert]

rose—

[Kerry McCarthy]

I am spoiled for choice! I shall give way first to the hon. Member for Hexham.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Would the hon. Member for Cambridge like to intervene now, so that I can answer both hon. Members at once?

[Dr Huppert]

I was going to ask a very similar question of the hon. Lady. Will she clarify the Opposition’s policy? Should the test be one of reasonable suspicion, as under previous legislation, or one of the balance of probabilities? The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) seemed to suggest that there should be a very low threshold, perhaps even lower than the one the Government propose.

[Kerry McCarthy]

We welcome the fact that the reasonable suspicion test is to be in place for only 30 days before it moves to one of reasonable belief, which is slightly tougher. In response to the hon. Member for Hexham, it is a matter for the courts to interpret what “reasonable belief” would be. We need to thrash out in Committee whether that constitutes a much lower standard than the balance of probabilities. We do not have a firm view on that, but we need to debate the matter in Committee.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) spoke from his experience of the Northern Ireland situation, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn, who is a former Northern Ireland Office Minister. The hon. Member for Upper Bann described the Bill as a sincere attempt to deal with important issues, but raised some questions about the interpretation of civil liberties, and it is important that they should be thoroughly debated in Committee.

The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) said that it was absolutely vital to scrutinise these matters, and that, although there seemed to be unanimity of purpose across the House in that we all want to ensure that assets are not misused for terrorist purposes, that was not quite the same as ensuring that the legislation would actually work. He referred to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and to the legislation that followed the shootings at Dunblane, and made the valid point that we must ensure that the legislation will not be struck down because of a perceived illegality. He quoted Burke saying that bad law was the worst kind of tyranny. This highlights the importance of scrutinising the Bill in Committee, and, although we broadly support its intentions and principles, we will subject it to robust scrutiny next week.

Reconstructing Gaza

Debate between Julian Huppert and Kerry McCarthy

Monday 8th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for granting me this debate, and particularly for granting it to me so early in the evening. Before I start, I refer Members to my entry in the register and the fact that I was funded by Sir Joseph Houghton trust for a recent three-day visit to Gaza. I was joined by my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and for Gloucester (Richard Graham), whom I hope to see shortly in their places. We were also joined by Lord Warner. I would like to thank Graham Bambrough and Ed Parsons from the Council for Arab-British Understanding, and all those whom we met in Gaza.

It is entirely as a result of that trip that I requested this debate, to feed back in a public venue the thoughts and reflections that I and my colleagues had while we were there. I should say that I also had other private meetings ahead of this debate, with the Minister and with the deputy Israeli ambassador, Mr Roth-Snir, for which I thank them both.

It is worth noting that our delegation was not allowed to cross between Gaza and Israel, and as a result it was, sadly, not possible to talk to people on both sides of the blockade, which we would very much have liked to do. May I, through the Minister, suggest to Israel that its interests may be better served by facilitating people to visit it, as well as Gaza?

My purpose in this debate is not to explore the history of the conflict, which has been done extensively elsewhere, and which, I think, does not do any participant proud. Sadly, discussions of the past were all too prevalent in our visit, with discussions going back as far as 1286. Instead, I want to focus on the present and on the future. But first, I believe that we do have shared goals that we all wish to see. Israel has a clear right to exist, and for its citizens to live in peace and security. The Palestinians have a clear right to have a fully potent state, with self-determination and autonomy.

Currently, Palestine does not have a truly functioning state or security, and Israel is concerned that it does not have the safety that it needs. Unfortunately, despite the ever ongoing peace talks, I fear that both sides are headed away from those goals.

One cycle of recent events began when Hamas won the elections in both Gaza and the west bank, under the banner, “Reform and Change”. Although I am no supporter of Hamas, it was poorly served by the west, which told it that it could stand in those elections only if it agreed to change its name and its platform. It did so and, in what seem to have been legitimate elections, won but was not recognised either in its own right or as part of a joint Government with Fatah. We need to learn the lessons, and consider more carefully how to respond when people whom we do not like win elections.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I was out in the west bank as an election observer during the very elections that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. He said that they were seen to be fair and impartial. It goes a little further than that, in that although people from the Carter and EU delegations and the British MPs who visited found minor things wrong with the way in which the elections were conducted, generally speaking there was an incredible turnout and there was very little on which we could challenge the elections.

[Dr Huppert]

I thank the hon. Lady for commenting. It is great to have the vision of somebody who was there and saw what happened. Whatever we think of the election result, Hamas clearly won it.

That led to the situation that we see now—a Fatah takeover in the west bank, and a Hamas takeover in Gaza, and to the events with which we are all too familiar: the rockets fired into Israel; Operation Cast Lead, with Israel killing 1,300 Palestinians, including 352 children; brutal repression of Hamas by Fatah and of Fatah by Hamas; the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit; the illegal blockade and siege of Gaza by Israel and Egypt; and the assault on the flotilla bringing aid to Gaza.

In our visit to Gaza, we saw a population who felt under siege, trapped inside their own small strip of land, and overcrowded—an intelligent, peaceful population, desperate for education and opportunity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy]

It seems entirely counter-productive not to allow through those construction materials, when, as the hon. Gentleman says, the UNRWA schools are far more moderate in their teachings than the Hamas-led schools. I appreciate that he did not have a chance to visit Israel and hold meetings there, but did he receive any feedback on why there are delays, and why there is no real push or zeal on the part of the Israeli authorities to get those schools built?

[Dr Huppert]

That is a fascinating question. I thank the hon. Lady for raising it, and in a moment I shall refer to what I have heard about the situation.

I am delighted about the schools, but we should be cautious. Approvals have been given in the past and then withdrawn, and allowing such basic building materials in should be a standard right, not a long drawn-out victory, but I thank the embassy for its information and urge the Minister to monitor carefully the progress on those projects, and to make the strongest protests possible if the flow of materials for those projects is curtailed. I hope he will agree to that.

On the question the hon. Lady asked, the argument used by Israel for not allowing construction materials in for these and other projects is one of security. The argument is that such materials—and there is a relatively long banned list, although it is better than it used to be—could be used by Hamas for military purposes. That argument makes sense superficially, and Israel does of course have a legitimate reason for wanting to control materials that could be used to make rockets, but it falls apart on closer examination.

It is well known that there are hundreds of tunnels under the border with Egypt which are used for smuggling. At the peak of the blockade, there were 1,200, including some large enough to drive a car through. We went into one—not the whole way, I hasten to add—and they are impressively constructed. At its peak, we were told, the value of the tunnel economy was between $500 million and $700 million a year, although the relaxation of the blockade on food and similar consumer goods has reduced activity significantly. The taxes that Hamas levies on imports through the tunnels provide a significant income to that organisation, helping to fund its activities and to buy up land and businesses throughout Gaza. However, those tunnels provide a regular supply of building materials, and we saw trucks being loaded with large amounts of cement and steel bars, along with signs throughout Gaza of construction works.

We found it ironic and deeply concerning that Hamas and related private individuals can have all the materials they need to build anything, from apartment blocks to bunkers, while the only effective constraints appear to be on the UN, non-governmental organisations and legitimate businessmen. That is surely counter-productive to Israel’s interests. It also serves to weaken UNRWA, which risks losing support through its inability to build while others are able to, because it is of course not prepared to use illegal materials. Given the flow of materials through the tunnels, Hamas can quite easily obtain any military equipment it requires, without having to try to acquire goods via the Israeli border.

Egypt plays an important role in the area. Indeed, we entered Gaza through Egypt. The press rarely highlights the fact that Egypt maintains a blockade on people movement in Gaza, just as Israel does, largely out of fear of the spread of Hamas ideology. However, Egypt could easily close down the tunnels if there was a desire to do so centrally, and if local military and police commanders were prepared to act—although that might go against their financial interests.