Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Jonathan Lord Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Monday 29th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

Let me also put on record my thanks to the Minister for his work on this issue. I first came across it when I witnessed the anger, frustration and despair of people who knew that they had done no wrong, yet had their reputations sullied, lost their business and faced the suspicion of their friends and even their family. They felt that they were beating their heads against a brick wall of bureaucracy—they were against people who had standing, and who were believed, regardless of the evidence that mounted against the case that they were making. The Minister has done a great thing by giving hope and exoneration to people, many of whom felt that they would never get justice. Now they have found it.

The Minister knew about the scandal before he took his position, and he made it clear at the very start that he intended to see this through. He has used his position to do a good thing. It is important to recognise that this place has been the vehicle by which justice has been delivered. A committed Minister was determined to use his position to do the right thing for individuals.

When the issue of Northern Ireland was first raised with the Minister, there was a reluctance; there is no doubt about it. When I put questions to him on the Floor of the House. and in my conversations with him, there were always reasons why legislation should be introduced in Northern Ireland. Here is a good thing: the arguments were listened to, over time.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) said, the Minister did not just roll over. He expected us to do something as well, and make the case—that is the job. I am thankful for the fact that he listened, and that Northern Ireland was included.

I thank the Clerk for his advice. Many of us are not really aware of all the parliamentary procedures, even though we have been here for I do not know how long. We do not always know the best of way of going about things. The advice and the support that was given was very important in getting this over the line.

Unfortunately, even though people will be exonerated as a result of this legislation, there are many who died with this shadow on them, and with the shame of what was done to them by people who, as the inquiry now shows, were cynical, manipulative and calculating in how they pursued them through the courts. This is not for debate today, but I hope that once the inquiry is over, there will be accountability for those who knowingly put sub-postmasters through this, quite apart from the embarrassment some have had during the inquiry, when they have forgotten matters, shown arrogance, or claimed that they were just doing their job. As I say, some sub-postmasters died without their name ever being cleared. We can do nothing about that, but I hope that their families will at least feel some reassurance as a result of this legislation.

Once the Bill passes into law, sub-postmasters will be exonerated from a legal point of view, but I hope that the compensation that they are due will be paid out quickly. The Minister outlined some of the ways he intends to ensure that compensation claims are dealt with quickly; I hope that they are.

I hope that other Ministers learn from this experience. Do not forget that even when the evidence was piling up, and the issues had been pointed out, and suddenly sub-postmasters and sub-mistresses across the country were common thieves, Ministers turned a blind eye, or accepted the explanation given by their officials. As I mentioned at the very start, the frustration that people feel when the state denies them justice, or tells them that they have done something that they have not, causes them to have no confidence at all in Government and its institutions. We could go through a number of issues. I look at the evidence that is building up on the loan charge. I ask myself whether, in five years’ time, we will find the same kind of issue there, with programmes put in place, and Ministers embarrassed and unable to explain why they did not take action when all the evidence was there. I hope Ministers take heed of this sorry tale, in which they believed people in power, rather than the victims of those in power.

[Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

I was elected in 2010, and was an MP of just a few months’ standing when my constituent Seema Misra approached me, saying that she had just been sentenced to jail. She was pregnant and her sentence came down on her son’s 10th birthday. With the help of James Arbuthnot, now in the other place, within a few days I realised that there were other colleagues who had similar cases, and it all pointed to the Horizon system. I wrote to the Post Office Minister at the time and I was rebuffed. There must have been other colleagues who did the same thing. A Back Bencher of just a few months’ standing was able to see right to the heart of the problem with the help of the internet and a couple of fantastic colleagues, yet a Minister of the Crown was not. Now, Ministers in our system have surgeries—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. This is not a Second Reading speech. We are at the very end of the Bill and the hon. Gentleman should be making an intervention, but that was very much a speech. We all have sympathy with the point he is making, but this is not the time in the proceedings when such points are made. I believe that the right hon. Member for East Antrim was just about to conclude the entire debate on the entire Bill.

Arms Export Licences: Israel

Jonathan Lord Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Westminster Hall

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Lady raises the exact point I am coming on to, which is that the system is designed so that a change in circumstances, with a proper assessment, can lead to a change in policy. She mentioned Turkey, but it has also happened in relation to Russia, Burma, Afghanistan and other countries. That is exactly why the policy is in place. We must be able to respond quickly and flexibly to changing circumstances.

[Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point that Hamas could solve this by removing themselves from their disastrous control of Gaza. However, does he agree that if there are war crimes on any scale, arms sales should cease immediately and there should be a full and immediate ceasefire?

Gender Recognition

Jonathan Lord Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

My hon. Friend is right. We need to ensure that we provide accurate data so that public authorities across the board, particularly hospitals, know exactly who and what they are dealing with. We have seen examples of people not receiving the right medical care after being identified as the wrong sex because of a GRC or a self-declared difference in sex or gender. We need to ensure that does not happen. We have seen issues across the board. The ONS is again looking at how to make the census clearer, because it was obvious that many people who completed it did not understand the question. That is what we are trying to say: this is a new space, a new area. Lots of things are developing. We should not be rushing to legislate; we should legislate carefully. That is why many of the things that people have been expecting are taking time. We are waiting for the Cass review, but we will carry out this work.

[Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

A few years ago, a loving, caring, intelligent and thoughtful married couple came to my surgery, and they were very distressed because they had just found out that their child had been questioning their gender at school and the school had, for several months, not informed them. This child had been counselled by two adults who had no appropriate qualifications. As we seek clarity on the law and the guidelines, will my right hon. Friend assure me that parents will be informed and included in those conversations, except in the most extraordinary circumstances?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I confirm that I want to make sure of that. As we saw in the guidance on gender-questioning children, it is absurd for such a significant change to be taking place without parents knowing. Of course, that may not be possible in the most extreme circumstances, but the vast majority of parents love their children and care for them. We should not treat parents as the enemy. They need to know what is going on because, quite a lot of the time, gender-questioning children have comorbidities—perhaps they are autistic or perhaps there is something else going on in the mental health space that needs clinical advice, rather than just putting them on the social transitioning pathway.

Heritage Sites: Sustainability

Jonathan Lord Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Westminster Hall

[Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

Brookwood cemetery in my constituency is a beautiful grade I listed historic park and garden. It has a fascinating history, which I would recommend to everyone. In brief, London ran out of space in its churchyards and cemeteries in the Victorian age, in the late 1840s. Given the potential for cholera outbreaks and so on, Brookwood cemetery in the heart of Surrey was designated to take all of London’s deceased, and a special train line was set up. Its other name was the London necropolis.

Today, 170 years later, it is still a beautiful place. Originally, the London Necropolis Company bought more than 2,000 acres. The site is still very large, at 220 acres. It holds the remains of more than 265,000 deceased, from the great and the good through to paupers. Recently, about 15,000 sets of remains from the route of the HS2 line have been reinterred at the cemetery. It is still used as an active cemetery, and still has that historic job of taking in remains when the need arises.

Brookwood has had a slightly chequered history in more recent times. It has always been in private ownership. Some of the private owners looked after the cemetery well; others not so much. Woking Borough Council stepped in a few years ago to buy the cemetery, and has done an amazing job of restoring it. The buildings, walls and memorials were in great need of love, attention and restoration. There are also some wonderful flora and fauna, but the area had become overrun with rhododendrons and all sorts of other things. Some of the trees are 170 years old; they are an absolutely magnificent sight, all set out in serried lines, particularly next to the old railway line. As Members can hear, this is a very special place, but it needs further restoration. It is the largest cemetery in the United Kingdom and one of the largest, if not the largest, in Europe. As I say, it has an amazing amount of history.

Going forward, Woking Borough Council will not be able to spend the sort of money on the cemetery that it has done in recent times. As I say, the council has done a great restoration job, but we are talking about a site of national importance. The Minister will forgive me if I engage with the Government and with his Department on this magnificent place, along with other heritage bodies and lottery organisations, because it really deserves the public’s support. As I have said, I recommend that everyone becomes acquainted with this most amazing place, but national support will be needed for this very special and important national monument.