Gurkha Pensions

Debate between Jonathan Gullis and Ruth Cadbury

Monday 22nd November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered e-petition 594155, relating to Gurkha pensions.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq. I will start by thanking Roy Brinkley, who himself is a veteran of the Grenadier Guards, for creating this petition. In total, it has attracted more than 107,000 signatures from all over the country, including 99 from Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, enabling us today to discuss the important issues underlying the petition. I also thank Roy and his friend Jack for taking the time to talk to my office earlier today about the petition and what it means to them. I apologise for not being able to meet them in person; sadly, unexpected parliamentary business meant that I had to ask my staff to take the meeting on my behalf. Roy is here in the Public Gallery, and many Gurkhas have turned up in Westminster today to show their support for the campaign. Sadly, we are likely to be disrupted by votes, but I hope that Roy and everyone outside will feel that we have done their campaign justice this evening.

When preparing for today’s debate, I realised that I have not yet spoken on the Gurkhas in this place. I approach this topic as someone who holds all members of our armed forces in the highest possible regard. As a bit of family history, my great-great-uncle, Allan Gullis—who still lives today—fought on D-day; my grandfather and hero, Terrence Gullis, served in the Royal Marines during the Suez crisis; and my maternal grandfather, William Beacham, served in the Royal Air Force. There is also a strong veterans community in my area of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke. We are proud to be the home of the Staffordshire Regiment. In Kidsgrove, the Royal British Legion has created a beautiful and touching war memorial garden, which is maintained and used all year round, and in Smallthorne, we have the fantastic veterans breakfast club at the Green Star pub, run by Martyn Hunt and Paul Horton. This family background, and the strong ties to the armed services that we have in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, were key motivations behind the Desecration of War Memorials Bill, which I tabled in June last year with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) to secure better protection for memorials to our glorious dead.

On top of that, today’s debate comes at a poignant time, following on so soon from Remembrance Sunday. Every year, we hold poignant services across north Staffordshire and our United Kingdom in memory of our glorious dead, and this year, it was a real privilege to be able to attend the memorial service at Tunstall memorial gardens and to lay wreaths and pay respects at memorials across my constituency. This year, it has also been very moving to be able to plant a cross in Parliament’s inaugural remembrance garden on behalf of the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke in memory of heroes such as Gunner Zak Cusack from Smallthorne and so many other brave men and women who served Queen and country. As such, I speak today as someone who knows just how amazing all our veterans are, and I hope I will do this subject the justice it deserves.

First of all, let me say that I know how highly regarded the Gurkhas are and have been for over 200 years. Their service to the British Crown, both here and overseas, has been marked by excellence and sacrifice. As Roy said to my team earlier, they are some of the most loyal soldiers this country has ever had, and have served on the frontlines of every war that the UK has fought in for the past 200 years. Prince Harry famously served alongside them during his 2007-08 tour of Afghanistan, and commented that

“when you know you are with the Gurkhas…there’s no safer place to be”.

That record of excellence and heroism goes somewhat under the radar, so I thank Joanna Lumley and campaigners like her for bringing the Gurkhas into the limelight. Like many people, I became aware of the problem Gurkhas have been facing, because of Joanna’s tireless efforts and all she has done to get this issue on our political agenda. More recently, we have had our attention refocused by the hunger strike outside Downing Street—indeed, I understand that Roy knows one of the hunger strikers personally. Having spoken to colleagues in the Ministry of Defence and other colleagues in this place before today’s debate, I know that the Gurkhas’ service is incredibly highly valued and respected. Their distinguished service is a source of immense pride in both the UK and Nepal.

From engaging with Roy, I understand that the crux of the issue is the pension scheme, and the concerns of many Gurkhas relate to the historic Gurkha pension scheme that ran from 1948 to 2007. Roy is seeking equal pension rights pre-1997, including back pay. The scheme differed from the arrangements for the rest of the British armed forces, being based on the Indian army model, because the Brigade of Gurkhas was based in Nepal until 1 July 1997. Despite that, I understand that for most Gurkha veterans the 1948 Gurkha pension scheme provides a pension at least as good as, and in many cases better than, that given to their British counterparts with identical periods of service. Under the Gurkha pension scheme all Gurkhas who retired before 1 July 1997 also qualified for an immediate pension after only 15 years of service. This meant that, typically, they would qualify for a pension in their 30s. By contrast, before 1975 British soldiers had to serve at least 22 years before they could receive a pension. That meant Gurkhas were receiving pension payments for over 25 years before most British soldiers of the same rank and length of service qualified for any payments.

Following the change in the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas in 1997, and a review of their terms and conditions of service in 2007, came a change to their pensions. Following this review, it was decided that the difference between the terms and conditions of service of the Gurkhas and those of their British counterparts would be eliminated. For Gurkhas currently serving, and those with service on or after 1 July 1997, there would be an offer to transfer to the armed forces pension scheme. The reason for this cut-off was that that was when the UK became the home base for the Brigade of Gurkhas and changes in immigration rules, backdated to 1 July 1997, meant there was an increased likelihood of retired Gurkhas settling in the UK on discharge. This change, to better reflect the changed circumstances of the Brigade of Gurkhas, who were no longer based in Nepal, was most welcome. However, it clearly has not solved all the outstanding issues.

It is welcome that there has been ongoing engagement between the UK Government, Nepali embassy officials and Gurkha veteran groups. The former Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), met repeatedly with Nepali Ministers and veterans groups to discuss the outstanding issues. This led to the production of the technical report, with the Gurkha veterans’ grievances, together with the UK Government’s responses, set out in one document. This engagement has led to improvements in the Gurkha pension scheme, and in March 2019 a new package of measures was announced, including an increase to pensions under the Gurkha pension scheme of between 10% and 34% above annual inflation. There was also a new £25 million investment in medical and healthcare facilities in Nepal for Gurkha veterans.

The Government have since agreed to reconsider the decision on the increase to pensions made in 2019, with a public consultation earlier this year that sought views on how changes should be implemented to the Gurkha pension scheme. That consultation closed earlier this year, and after considering responses Ministers will make a fresh decision on the size of the uplift. The Ministry of Defence has also agreed to start a bilateral committee in December to discuss all Gurkha veteran welfare issues. This move is very welcome, but I understand from what Roy has said that, as yet, there is no certainty over the timings of this important committee. If it is possible, I would very much appreciate the Minister sharing more details of these plans in his response.

Another key issue that Roy raised with me was the ability of Gurkhas and their families to settle in the United Kingdom, to be granted citizenship and to have the right to vote. Non-UK service personnel, including Gurkhas, can also apply for settlement in the UK on discharge if they have served a minimum of four years and meet the requirements of the immigration rules. Settlement gives people the right to live, work and study here for as long as they like and to apply for benefits if they are eligible; they can use it to apply for British citizenship. However, I recognise that although there is a straightforward route to settlement the current system places a financial liability on those personnel and their families, costing £2,389 per person. I am therefore delighted that the MOD and the Home Office are currently analysing the responses received to a draft policy proposal to waive fees for non-UK service personnel if they apply to settle in the UK at the end of their military service, provided certain criteria are met.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

I am pleased that the hon. Member raises the issue of immigration fees. Does he not think that the Home Office is fleecing Gurkhas and other ex-service personnel by charging £2,000 per person for a process that costs only £200 to administer?

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. She probably will not be shocked that I will not use the word “fleecing”. However, I was going on to say that I wholeheartedly support the idea of waiving this fee. The Gurkhas have served our country—their country—and they have kept me, my daughter and the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke safe. It is only right and fair that people who are willing to put their lives on the line for the United Kingdom’s safety get the respect that they deserve. I therefore implore the Minister and the Home Office, which I am sure will be watching the debate, to do the right thing and waive the fees for non-UK armed forces personnel who have served their country and who meet the requirements. We have a fantastic Gurkhas veterans community across the United Kingdom.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Jonathan Gullis and Ruth Cadbury

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

I rise to support the amendments standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who I must say made an impressive opening speech on Monday. Those of us elected in 2015 are old enough to remember when we were told we would get chaos if he was elected Prime Minister. As I look at the current Government, the word “chaos” feels like an understatement.

The seat I represent is in west London, but I know that many of my constituents care deeply about the Union of the four nations of the UK, the UK’s reputation and the credibility of the UK and the rule of law. The debate is not about whether people support or oppose Brexit. Saying that, I voted against triggering article 50 back in 2017, because I knew that it would take time to sort out the nuts and bolts of Brexit and that we had a long way to go, but we now have only three months until we leave the EU single market. As we can see from the mess in this Bill, there is still an awful long way to go. That hits business, it hits people and it hits our nations.

The debate is, however, about how our Government approach devolution and our future relations with the devolved nations, as well as our current and future trade partners. That approach is, in my view, deeply flawed. The Bill is an act of self-destruction in the middle of a destructive pandemic. In the clauses we are discussing today, we see powers and money pulled away from the devolved nations while we are all caught up in a race to the bottom on standards.

The Government’s White Paper claims that they will legislate in a way that “respects the devolution settlement”. However, as many have already said in the debate, the Bill does the exact opposite. With due respect to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), I am sorry—I disagree. The Bill leads to a significant recentralisation of power away from the devolved Administrations and back to Whitehall, undermining so many of the very many benefits and the core principles of devolution.

[Jonathan Gullis]

I am going to try asking this question, as a number of my hon. Friends have. Which specific powers that the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government already have are being completely taken away? Clause 47 says “to provide financial assistance”. I do not understand how “assistance” means completely taking power away. “Assistance” means to assist.

[Ruth Cadbury]

I am happy to respond to the hon. Member. Clause 46 specifically says:

“A Minister of the Crown may, out of money provided by Parliament, provide financial assistance to any person… or in connection with, any of the following purposes”.

And so it goes on. The power is all in a Minister. That is taking power away from the devolved Governments.

We know that this is a Government who enjoy hoarding power and consistently ignore devolved government, whether it is local councils, city hall or devolved Governments. “Centralisation, centralisation, centralisation” is the mantra from this Government, and it has been since 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Gullis]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Ruth Cadbury]

I will not, because time is short, and I have already given way once.

A central plank of our devolution settlement has been the right of devolved areas to set their own priorities, yet the Bill undermines that by giving Ministers the power to provide funding over a wide range of issues, from culture to sport and economic development. Many voters in red wall seats changed their allegiance at the election, and according to the polling, many of them did so because they felt divorced from Westminster and Whitehall. That is true of people in the devolved countries. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they voted strongly away from this Government and also away from Brexit in the referendum.

These powers will only make people in the UK feel further divorced from decision making that affects their lives, on issues such as culture, sport and economic development. The explanatory notes to the Bill even accept that, saying that these powers

“fall within wholly or partly devolved areas”.

Members need not take my word for it. The Welsh Government have called this Bill

“an attack on democracy and an affront to the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, who have voted in favour of devolution on numerous occasions.”