Economic Crime: Planned Government Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I thank my hon. Friend for his work in this area and those comments. He is absolutely right: the theme in this is economic crime—county lines and those kinds of things. That is why the Business Department, the Treasury and the Home Office are working together to get this right and to tackle all of that in the round.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

Fraud is a traumatic experience, which makes reports that victims are having their details collated and sold on the dark web as part of a so-called “suckers list” extremely worrying. What can be done to protect victims from being targeted a second time, and will the Minister ensure that this is a particular focus of the Government’s work moving forward?

[Paul Scully]

First, we need to do lots of work on awareness of scams and those kinds of areas, which fall into my direct remit. Action Fraud is taking more and more of a position here to support victims and—the hon. Gentleman rightly referred to this—to tackle the immediacy after the event and to make sure that it cannot happen again.

Post Office Update

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

Part of the inquiry is to measure whether the Post Office has put into place the things that it has promised to do as a result of the civil litigation and the many, many pages of evidence and comment by Mr Justice Fraser. There are many areas there that should put the Post Office on a firm footing for the future relationship with its postmasters. This part of the inquiry is testing whether they have done so already.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

Last week, we received news that Barclays was closing its last branch in Ammanford, the main town in my constituency, leaving only one remaining bank—a fate shared by all the market towns in my constituency, some of which have been left with none. That leaves the Post Office the last remaining financial provider of everyday vital services for our communities. That fate is, I would imagine, shared across the whole of Wales and the rest of the UK. Is it not time to give sub-postmasters the option of being recognised as employed workers, as opposed to independent contractors, so that they are remunerated properly for the vital role they play in our communities and as a means of righting the wrongs served upon them by the Horizon scandal?

[Paul Scully]

The Post Office speaks regularly to the unions and to postmasters in general. Two postmasters have been elected to serve on the board, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to talk about access to cash. The Post Office has good plans to pilot new ways of access to cash to replace the last bank in town, an issue that he rightly articulates.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

My hon. Friend has been a formidable champion for businesses in her area, including weddings, personal care and hospitality, especially. The pace and sequencing of reopening in the road map have been informed by the latest scientific evidence from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies in its working groups. Weddings, which bring family and friends together, with their interaction, are particularly vulnerable to the spread of covid-19.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

What recent discussions he has had with electricity network distribution operators on the adequacy of investment in rural electricity grids to meet potential demand as a result of a transition to electric vehicles.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 16th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

Before the Minister starts launching the fireworks in celebration of the progress in the Lords yesterday, I would like to remind him that the Welsh Government remain deeply dissatisfied and have announced that they intend taking the UK Government to court over the provisions in the Bill, not least the state aid provisions and the economic intervention proposals. Will he explain how the common frameworks process will work and where power will reside within the common frameworks, because there is a degree of ambiguity about that? Will he also commit the British Government to bringing forward a statement on the common frameworks to the House of Commons for scrutiny in the new year so that we can have a discussion about whether this is actually the best way forward?

[Paul Scully]

Clearly it is disappointing that the Welsh Government have chosen to issue that statement, especially in the light of the productive working relationship that we have enjoyed with their Ministers and officials during the passage of the Bill. I know that the common frameworks have been subject to much debate, and I hope I will be able to clarify this as we go through. There will be more discussion in the new year about the frameworks and how they will work moving forward, because they have been productive in a number of areas to date, and I know that that will continue.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 15th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I beg to move,

That this House disagrees with Lords amendments 1F, 1G, 1H, 1K, 1L and 8M.

I am pleased that we continue to make positive progress on the Bill and that both Houses have continued to find agreement on a number of issues. In large part, this is due to colleagues from across both Houses continuing to have constructive and positive discussions with the Government. I want to put on record my thanks to colleagues on the Opposition Benches in this place, and the other place, in particular, for their engagement.

There are still a few outstanding areas, which have gone back and forth between the Houses, and I will outline the Government’s rationale for why we cannot accept the proposals as drafted. I will begin by speaking about the approach to exclusions taken by the Bill, which is a shared point across amendments 1F, 1G, 1H, 1J, 1K, 1L and 8M. I will then address the specifics of the common frameworks amendments and wider market access exclusions.

As I said last week, and as my noble friends Lord Callanan and Lord True said in the other place yesterday, the Government have been clear throughout these debates that we agree that there is a need for an exclusions regime. However, it has to be carefully drafted and provide certainty for business. In drafting the Bill, and clauses 10 and 17 specifically, the Government have designed an exclusions approach that achieves a careful balance. Both the noble and learned Lord Hope and Lord Stevenson have narrowed the scope of their amendments and I thank them both for their continued dialogue with the Government on those. Our assessment remains, however, that the approach in both sets of amendments goes too far both in the breadth of exclusions that it would require the Secretary of State to create and the uncertainty that it would lead to. These amendments would be detrimental to the clarity, simplicity and certainty that the Bill intends to provide.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

My reading of these amendments is that they are extremely watered down from what we would want. They essentially still give the Westminster Government a veto over the ability of the devolved Governments to legislate within devolved competency, so these are very meagre proposals. In refusing to accept even these proposals, is not the true nature of the Bill revealing itself? It is the British Government’s intention to use the Bill to impose uniformity over Wales and Scotland.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Consideration of Lords amendments & Ping Pong & Ping Pong: House of Commons
Monday 7th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

The hon. and learned Lady will note that the document states “where…necessary”. As I said earlier, many of the common frameworks do not relate to the internal market. That was my point exactly.

It is a core point that none of us should wish to see internal barriers to trade erected inside our country to the detriment of jobs and growth. We have been clear in the other place about how we see the common frameworks programme and the market access principles interreacting with this point at the heart of the argument. While common frameworks are jointly owned, the UK’s full internal market regime can only be owned by the UK Government and overseen by the UK Parliament.

The Minister for the Constitution and Devolution, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) looks forward to completing the delivery of the common frameworks programme, discussing further with our partners in the devolved Administrations and the devolved legislatures how we can capitalise on working ahead through common frameworks and put these areas of co-operation on a sustainable footing for the longer term to the benefit of citizens and businesses. We welcome the support of right hon. and hon. Members in achieving that, but we have been clear that amendments 1, 19 and 34 are not necessary and have considerable drawbacks. I therefore call on the House to disagree with them.

To speak to Lords amendments 8 to 13, 15, 16 to 18, 30 to 33 and 56, the Government have taken positive steps to reach a compromise position that balances concern about delegated powers with the ability of the Government to act to protect our internal market. The Government have already made significant steps. We have removed the power, which is no longer considered essential, for the operation of flexibility in the internal market system. We have made further changes on transparency and accountability, such as a review mechanism on the use of such powers. In the other place, we tabled amendments to require consultation with the devolved Administrations before the use of key powers, reflecting our previous commitments. However, once consultation is undertaken, the right place for final decisions should be back in Parliament where parliamentarians from all parts of the UK can debate and vote on the proposed use of the powers. The Government are therefore disappointed by the decision in the other place.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

My understanding is that the Welsh Senedd will vote tomorrow to decline to approve the legislative consent motion for the Bill. Does that not indicate the problem with the British Government’s approach to consent? Consent means nothing without the power of veto.

[Paul Scully]

If the Welsh Assembly decides that way, that will be regrettable—[Interruption.] The Welsh Senedd. It will be regrettable, because it is important that we continue to work together and allow continuity of trade and business between Wales, Welsh businesses and, indeed, the other nations of the UK. That is what Welsh businesses have been asking us for as we have been talking to them. They want certainty, and this Bill will give them certainty.

The Government are disappointed that the other place did not take up our reasonable offer and removed key provisions needed to ensure the operation of the internal market.

Statutory Paid Bereavement Leave: Loss of Family Member

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Monday 30th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) on securing a debate on this important issue. I am grateful to her for bringing it to the attention of Parliament.

We have heard today about the impact of bereavement on individuals and their wider families, and about the experience of losing someone whom we love or who has played a special role in our lives. That is deeply upsetting, and I sympathise with anybody who has been in that position. We will all experience bereavement at some point in our lives, but the fact that death is an inevitable part of our experience of life does not detract from the sense of loss that most of us will feel or from the fact that, for some of us, that sense of loss will at times feel overwhelming.

I found the hon. Member’s account particularly poignant because I know she speaks from personal experience. She has spoken with passion and compassion. I am grateful to her for her candour and for raising awareness of this issue and of the impact of stillbirths and baby loss generally on individuals and their wider families, both today and on many other occasions in this Chamber.

All of us have been touched in some way by covid-19, whether as a result losing someone who has played a part in our lives or simply as a result of reading the virus’s mortality rates in the press. I have lost two uncles myself during lockdown, one of whose funeral I could not take part in.

In April this year, as the hon. Member said, we introduced parental bereavement leave and pay for employed parents who lose a child under the age of 18 or who suffer stillbirth from 24 weeks of pregnancy. That new entitlement recognises that the death of a child is particularly tragic. Prior to April, employed parents had a statutory right to take time off work following the birth or adoption of their child, but they did not have a specific right to time off work in the event of their child’s death. Parents who are in that dreadful position are now able to take up to two weeks’ leave in the 56-week period following their child’s death. Where they qualify for pay, parents will receive the lower of 90% of their average weekly earnings or the statutory flat rate, which is currently £151.20 a week. Like all entitlements to paid time off work, the statutory scheme provides a floor, not a ceiling.



The Government are mindful of placing additional burdens on business in the current economic climate, but we strongly encourage employers, as we have heard, to go beyond the statutory minimum if they can afford to. This could involve giving parents additional weeks of leave and pay, or paying them at an earnings-related rate when they are off work on parental bereavement leave.

This debate has raised the question of whether the right to paid leave for parents should be extended to all those who lose a close family member. As we have heard, grief is a very personal experience, which affects different people in different ways. While some people understandably want to take time off work following a bereavement, others may prefer to work through their grief. We believe that individuals are best placed to understand their own specific needs. Employers should, and usually do, respond to these needs in an appropriate and sensitive way, even in the absence of a legal requirement to time off work.

While I of course recognise the pain that can accompany bereavement—as I have mentioned, I am speaking from recent personal experience of this—extending entitlements to bereavement leave and pay would come at a significant cost to the public purse. It would also place additional burdens on business at a time when many employers are struggling to keep their businesses afloat. We cannot ignore this fact, and while we are sympathetic to everyone who has lost a close family member, whether through covid-19 or otherwise, the Government have no plans to extend entitlement to bereavement leave and pay at this time.

I remind hon. Members, however, that employees who want to take time off work are already entitled to take up to 5.6 weeks of annual leave a year. All employees also have a day one right to take time off work to deal with an emergency involving a dependant, and in the case of a bereavement the right to time off for dependants can be used to make necessary practical arrangements, including registering the death and arranging and attending the funeral of the person who has died.

The hon. Lady talked about the cost of bereavement. I am unable to comment on the figures today, but my officials have had an initial meeting with representatives from the Sue Ryder charity, who have agreed to share their analysis with us when the report is finalised.

Grieving is a natural process that we should not attempt to stifle, and most of us are able to cope with our loss with support from our family, friends, colleagues and employer, but I recognise that bereavement is a risk factor for physical and mental health issues. Where a bereavement is particularly debilitating or likely to have a longer-term impact on an individual’s mental or physical health, they have access to our excellent national health service. In May this year the Government announced additional funding of £4.2 million to support mental health charities and charities providing bereavement support. That was part of a £750 million package of support for the voluntary sector announced by the Chancellor in April.

Where a bereavement does affect someone’s mental or physical health, they also have the option of taking sick leave. They may be eligible for statutory sick pay. Clearly, statutory sick leave is a means to an end, but bereavement in itself is not a sickness. Employees can, however, self-certify as sick for the first seven days that they are off work. After that time, a fit note is required and their employer can request medical evidence if they wish. Individuals who are not eligible for statutory sick pay and those who require additional support may be eligible for universal credit and the new-style employment and support allowance.

The hon. Lady talked about covid and its effect on families. I was fortunate enough, at the funeral of one of my uncles, to join close family members to pay my final respects, and indeed to do so for my mother, who died just before lockdown, but not everybody has been fortunate. We talk about the death rates in this country, so this is clearly not just personal to me; tens of thousands of people across the country have been through similar experiences. So I am acutely aware of the fact that covid-19 has robbed so many of us of the opportunity to see our loved ones before they died and to say goodbye in the way we would all want.

No two people’s experiences of a bereavement are the same; we all have our coping strategies. Our experience will, however, to a large extent be influenced by how the people around us respond to us and our loss. As the hon. Lady said, far too many people suffer their loss in silence and this can lead to them feeling isolated and alone. While no one should feel obliged to talk about their personal experiences, they should also not be afraid to do so.

We have given employers the tools they need to approach what might otherwise be a difficult conversation with a bereaved employee. In 2014, the Government commissioned ACAS to provide guidance on managing a bereavement in the workplace. The guidance was developed in conjunction with key stakeholders, including Cruse Bereavement Care, Jack’s Rainbow and other bereavement charities. The guidance has been well received and was updated in 2020 to provide more accessible webpage content for users and to take account of the new right of parental bereavement leave. The guidance can be found on ACAS’s website. Use of the guidance continues to grow and has increased since the start of the pandemic. There was a total of 82,000 visits to the guidance between 1 April and 23 November. ACAS is working on further revisions, including revised case studies to offer more detailed support to employers and employees at this difficult time.

Where an individual loses their spouse or civil partner, they may be eligible for a bereavement support payment. This consists of an initial lump sum payment of £2,500 and up to 18 monthly instalments of £100, with higher amounts being paid to those individuals who have children. The initial payment for individuals who have children is £3,500. Bereavement support payments are intended to meet the additional costs of bereavement rather than providing an ongoing income replacement to bereaved spouses and partners.

As the hon. Member mentioned, the Government will bring forward an employment Bill to implement a range of manifesto and other commitments, and we will publish our detailed proposals for that Bill in due course. While the Government are not minded at this time to introduce a new right to time off work for people who have lost a close relative, we do understand how difficult this can be for people in bereavement.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I thank the Minister for giving way and for the way he has approached the debate. I am slightly disappointed that the Government will not even look at the proposals, because this seems to be a very simple reform. All the Government need to do is define what they mean by “reasonable”. The eligibility criteria are already there. All these different employers have a different idea of what “reasonable” means, so my question would be: what does “reasonable” mean to him as the Minister?

[Paul Scully]

I have been an employer in the past, and the biggest asset of any business is the employees. Any business owner invests time in training and developing people, and they make up the business. In terms of reasonable time, I have talked about the fact that bereavement is different for different people, and I think that they just need to work together with employees. As I said, I am not minded to put it on a statutory footing, but we will continue to work with Members across the House in the employment Bill and with Sue Ryder in understanding their background. I am looking forward to introducing that Bill to this House, when we can talk about a whole range of issues to support employees through the aftermath of this pandemic and put workers’ rights on a long footing beyond now.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Paul Scully

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but prior to his contribution, other Members did raise the point about how these people were being recruited and for what reasons.

This measure means that each devolved Administration will be fully and equally involved in the oversight of the UK internal market. It minimises the need to seek court action, thus ensuring the continued smooth operation of the UK internal market that businesses crave. The provisions set out in the Bill provide broad oversight on an equal basis for all Administrations. The new Office for the Internal Market will be able to provide non-binding, expert reporting, technical monitoring, regulations and proposals, which will provide robust evidence on the actual or potential impact of regulatory measures, thus ensuring enhanced transparency and accountability for decision making across all the Administrations, including the UK Government acting on behalf of England. It is important that by doing this, the Office for the Internal Market will add an extra economic impact assessment that could otherwise just boil down to a political debate, which would not provide the consistency and coherence that businesses are seeking at this time.

I turn now to the amendments, starting with amendment 28 to clause 28. The clause is important because it defines those regulatory provisions on which the CMA will report and advise. This will ensure certainty and transparency for Administrations, businesses and the general public. Regulatory provisions are in scope if they set requirements for the purposes of mutual recognition and non-discrimination principles in the Bill for the sale of goods and equivalent services, as well as recognition of professional qualifications, and if they apply to one or more nations but not the whole of the UK.

As we have heard, amendment 28 seeks to exclude Scotland from the benefits of the new Office for the Internal Market. It would carve out regulation that applies only in Scotland from the definition of regulatory provisions across this part of the Bill, which basically means that the Scottish Government could not proactively request advice and its regulatory measures could not be included in the regular monitoring of impacts and trends in the UK internal market. If the functions of the new Office for the Internal Market applied asymmetrically, as is suggested, its work would be severely undermined from the outset.

Full UK-wide coverage and relationships with all four Administrations will be vital in gaining and maintaining the confidence of stakeholders, so I strongly question how the office could effectively fulfil the functions given to it by the Bill if it cannot assess impacts across the UK internal market as a whole. Parity is a central principle in how the office for the internal market will conduct its affairs. It will be of service to all four nations of the UK, but in turn it will legitimately expect to consider the impacts of regulatory measures across all four Administrations. The clause empowers the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments, as well as the devolved Administrations.

Equally, the amendment would deny Scottish Government policy makers an important support system for the development of regulation following the transition period. The expertise and analysis of the Office for the Internal Market, offered to all Administrations equally, should not be rejected in this way. Finally and most importantly, since this provision plays a key part in ensuring there are no trade barriers, businesses across the UK would suffer.

To ensure the ongoing smooth operation of the UK internal market, clause 29 will ensure that emerging trends and developments in the market are independently reviewed by the CMA. The CMA has a strong reputation for independence and impartiality, which the Government have striven to preserve in setting out the functions of the office for the internal market. The UK Government have no role in what I have described: the function of the office in reporting to this House, the other place and devolved legislatures, discussing such topics as intra-UK competition, free access to goods and services, and the impact of diverging regulatory conditions in different parts of the UK.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) raised other areas that the office could look into. It is important to know that the list is not exclusive; there are other areas, and the CMA has a great track record in championing the consumer, so the consumer point he raised is covered.

I said that there was no role for the UK Government in what I have just described. Truly independent scrutiny is crucial if anyone is to have faith in the office’s pronouncements on the health of the UK internal market, especially our business community at a time when those same businesses find themselves stretched thin by the impact of the coronavirus.

[Jonathan Edwards]

If the office for the internal market writes a report that says, for instance, that a regulation passed by the Northern Irish Assembly—if it was functioning—was contrary to the principles of the Bill, would there be legal recourse if a company was affected by that policy?

[Paul Scully]

As I say, the office will put forward non-binding reports to each devolved Parliament, but then there are the existing provisions for working intergovernmentally. We also have the common frameworks arrangement, as has been described, which has already provided good collaboration and co-operation, which I will come back to in a second. Ultimately, yes, the courts are there as a last resort, but if we have the inter- governmental relationships and build on those, as trusted partners, we will not have to resort to that.



The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey) said that minimum alcohol pricing, procurement, health and tuition fees would be undermined or constrained by the OIM’s functions. That is just not true. None of the clauses set out in part 4 precludes the devolved Administrations from introducing policies in any of those areas. The OIM will not be empowered to bind Administrations or veto regulations. It will only be concerned with assessing the economic impact of regulation, never its merit.

When not acting at the request of an Administration for reporting or advice, the OIN would only ever be concerned with monitoring the health of the UK’s internal market, such as the flow of trade, the impact of regulations on intra-UK competition and investment, or the ready availability of goods and services for all our citizens. The CMA, which the OIM will be established within, already operates at a strict arm’s length from the Government and all devolved Administrations. It has built up a wealth of expertise and experience, and has a global reputation for promoting competition. That is why it is a natural fit. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stone mentioned, the Bill clearly sets out that the OIM would be required to provide access to its reports and advice to all four Administrations on an equal basis, enhancing transparency and accountability.