Finance (No.2) Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Ian Swales

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is certainly one argument, and I shall talk about how, with such an attitude, the super-wealthy are cutting off their own noses, and how a progressive taxation system would benefit them as well as people like the hon. Gentleman and me, who earn far less than those who get hit by the top rate.

As the 2012 HMRC paper that examined the effect of the 50% additional rate of income tax noted,

“there was a considerable behavioural response to the rate change, including a substantial amount of forestalling: around £16 billion to £18 billion of income is estimated to have been brought forward to 2009-10 to avoid the introduction of the additional rate of tax.”

This is a massive sum which would arguably have been included in taxation had the measure been announced with immediate effect.

The most recent figures from HMRC revised liabilities up by £2.8 billion in 2010-11, £3.3 billion in 2011-12 and £3.5 billion in 2012-13. This means that HMRC says it earned a total of £9.6 billion more than previously thought from the 50p tax rate. These are of course projections of taxable income, but that makes the case for the new clause which I am pushing.

[Ian Swales]

The hon. Gentleman makes the point about the £9.6 billion. Is he aware that HMRC says that the main part of that is due to higher income levels, not to changes in tax levels?

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is a fair point. We are making the case for a review. Let us have the figures divulged further. As I say, they are projections.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is the key point. If we have effective anti-evasion and avoidance measures, an increased rate of tax will inevitably lead to a higher yield.

We are living in very worrying times where wealth inequalities at geographical and individual levels are unprecedented. Parts of London have gross value added 12 times higher than parts of Wales. While London has the highest GVA per head of any area in the European Union, west Wales and the valleys has one of the lowest. The contemporary history of geographical and individual disparities has been truly depressing in this regard. Successive Governments do not have a good story to tell, with rebalancing promised but never delivered.

At the heart of the argument for a reduced top rate of tax is the trickle-down theory that underpins much of the now-discredited neo-liberal economics that the Thatcher and Reagan era ushered in. It was always sold to us that the newly re-empowered financial elites would spend their money and it would trickle down, and the people at the bottom would become wealthier as a result of this benevolent spending. But what has happened over the past 30 years? Inequality has, in fact, grown massively. Instead of the wealth of the super-rich flowing down, the rich, especially the super-rich, have got steadily even richer and hoarded their money. That money is not simply made out of the sweat and toil of their own good fortune, skill and brilliance, but often on the backs of those who work hard on the bottom rung but gain little financial reward for the true value of their efforts.

We often hear the super-rich whine that they have made their money, so why should they pay a lot of awful tax on it? Well, that tax goes towards paying for important services such as schools, to educate the work force of the next generation, and hospitals, to maintain the work force in good health. It also pays for a police force that keeps our communities safe, and a legal system that ensures that the law operates smoothly and in a trusted way to allow for a broadly prosperous economy and a society free from corruption. We erode these provisions at our peril. Taxes do not exist in a vacuum; they provide the services that create the whole that enables individuals to go on to enjoy the freedom of being able to make money and enjoy relative prosperity. That is what the proponents of the trickle-down effect have forgotten and wilfully ignored over the past 30 years, as the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) said.

My new clause would pave the way for the additional rate to be raised to 50%—a small rise of 5%—primarily because that would be symbolic of a move towards a more equal and just society. Only last month, the International Monetary Fund released a report that concluded that the more equal societies stand a better chance of long-term sustainable economic growth. Of course, the IMF is the high priest of austerity which, throughout the 1980s and ’90s, forced developing-world Governments to privatise their publicly owned industries wholesale and enact wildly free-market policies in exchange for international loans. The result was the plundering of those countries’ natural resources by global multinationals, with little benefit being felt by the poor local populations and the elites doing handsomely. It is therefore quite a turnaround for the IMF to conclude that income inequality impedes growth and that efforts to redistribute are positive.

This is the real political challenge that will face us over the next generation. That is why we should be ensuring that those with the broadest shoulders bear the burden in what will continue to be very hard times for those at the bottom of the income scale, given the massive cuts that this Government are still intent on inflicting. Let us remember that a vast tract of the austerity programme has yet to feed into the system. An additional rate of 50% would help to ensure that the super-wealthy bear the burden and pay their fair share. I urge the House to support the new clause.

[Ian Swales]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark.

I represent areas that, I am sure, are not dissimilar to those of Members who have already spoken and intervened and where there is a great deal of deprivation. Anybody who wants to learn about my constituency can look at the long article about it in the business section of last weekend’s edition of The Sunday Times.

The amendments tabled by Opposition Members forget some important things. The Labour party kept the top rate at 40% throughout its time in office, until its very last day in power. The only day the rate was 50% was 6 April 2010—the day Parliament was dissolved for the general election.

The right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) have both questioned how principled the former Prime Minister and the former Chancellor, the right hon. Members for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), were in their commitment to raising the rate to 50%. One thing is for sure: a general election was approaching and they probably knew that the increase would be the gift that kept on giving in terms of headlines. They had levied taxes in any way they could and they knew that going up from 40% was a dubious move in terms of raising revenue; otherwise, they would have done it earlier. What it did do was lead to more headlines.

Millionaires are paying £381,000 more in income tax in this Parliament than they did in the previous Parliament. Having said that, cutting the rate was not the top priority for me or my party. Our priority was to cut taxes for ordinary working people and we are very proud of the large moves we have made in that direction.

We should also remember that taxing the rich is not only about the headline rate of income tax. Let us consider some of the other measures this Government have already taken. Withdrawal of the personal allowance on incomes of more than £100,000 means that there is already a 60% tax rate on incomes between £100,000 and £120,000. On capital gains tax, anybody lucky enough to make a capital gain of £1 million will pay £100,000 more tax under this Government than they did under the previous Government. The 18% rate of capital gains tax under Labour meant that City operators who made capital gains paid less tax on them than their office cleaners paid on their income, which was truly outrageous. People with a pension contribution of £250,000 are now paying £94,000 more tax on it. If anyone is lucky enough to have £1 million to spend after all those taxes, they will pay £25,000 more in VAT, if they spend it on standard rate items. Tax avoidance has also gone down; Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, with its extra resources, is clamping down on it. The idea that this Government are sitting around allowing the rich to do whatever they want is absolute nonsense.

Labour’s proposal to put the rate back up to 50% has already been thrown into doubt by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. I am the first to admit that £100 million is a lot of money, but that is all that would come out of it and the IFS has said that it is not a good way to narrow the deficit. HMRC has already said that what the rise to 50% would actually achieve is doubtful. If hon. Members want to review it, we already have real experience of rates of 40%, 50% and now 45%. The Treasury and HMRC conduct regular reviews and a similar review could be conducted on real, existing data. There was a 50% rate for a period, so a real review could be conducted. It is also worth remembering that national insurance is currently 2%, so the marginal rates that people are paying to the Government are not 45%, but 47%.

We have to be careful. The experience in France is fascinating. There has been a wholesale exodus, with the actor Gérard Depardieu taking the extreme step of moving to Russia to avoid what he regards as extreme tax rates. There is no doubt that people with such incomes and that kind of money can, largely, live wherever they like these days. We need to bear it in mind that the population is more fluid than it used to be.

The Red Book makes it very clear that the top decile pays far more tax than it did. That is right because, as the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr said, people with the broadest shoulders should bear the biggest burden; and they are doing so, because of all the changes that have been made. Despite the fact that the amendment suggests otherwise,

“income inequality is at its lowest level since 1986”,

as the Red Book states. I find the idea that income inequality widened under a Labour Government abhorrent, because such Governments should have narrowing it in their DNA. My four grandparents, who all helped to launch the Labour party, must have been spinning in their graves during the 13 years of the previous Government. I am deeply cynical about Labour’s commitment: they cut taxes for millionaires every year that they were in government.

I look forward to discussing this further in Committee. I do not have a particular argument with reviews, but they do not need to be specified in Bills.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Ian Swales

Monday 4th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

I warmly welcome the proposals in the Bill. We have already heard the statistics on its impact, including that 90% of the money involved will go to companies with fewer than 50 employees. That represents real help for small businesses up and down the country. I also welcome the fact that it will be much simpler to apply for the allowance, and that businesses will no longer have the kind of issues they are experiencing with the present scheme.

It is certainly true that people and businesses respond to financial incentives, and it is no wonder that national insurance is sometimes called a jobs tax, because it can be a disincentive to employing people. It raises the bar to employing people and, given the importance of creating jobs in our economy, it is great to see that bar coming down. The Federation of Small Businesses has stated that the Bill will affect not only jobs; investment will also increase, as will the pay of the staff. I warmly welcome the FSB’s conclusion. Let us contrast these measures with the previous Government’s proposed 1% increase for employers and employees in April 2011. The independent Centre for Economics and Business Research said that that measure would have taken 57,000 jobs out of our economy—proving the point that national insurance can indeed be a big incentive either to employ people or fire them.

I welcome the proposals relating to offshore oil and gas employees. Quite a number of them live in my constituency, and many have had great difficulty with the intermediary companies that employ them. The confused nature of the national insurance arrangements can cause them personal issues when they start to claim pensions, for example, so I welcome the simplifying measures and look forward to the remaining measures required to give offshore oil and gas workers the right status in our economy.

The tax avoidance measures are also welcome. They are part of an ongoing campaign by the Government, who have already increased by 2,500 the number of staff employed to deal with tax avoidance and evasion. There is a lot more to be done, but we should all warmly welcome clauses 9 and 10, which will apply the general anti-abuse rule. This will prevent offshore payroll companies from avoiding national insurance.

[Jonathan Edwards]

How much of the annual tax gap does the hon. Gentleman think this measure will tackle?

[Ian Swales]

Very little. We heard from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) that the measure will not bring in an enormous amount. It will, however, remove the loophole that has been used by many companies, including some of our merchant banks, to pay their staff offshore as a technique for avoiding national insurance. We have to welcome any measures that will improve that situation.

I want to ask the Minister for clarification following the 2011 Budget announcement that tax and national insurance would be simplified and that work would be done to bring them together. We have long since lost the hypothecation of national insurance, and I wonder whether we could simplify the arrangements a lot more than we are doing at the moment. I hope he will respond to that point.

The Bill is part of a big package aimed at supporting small and medium-sized businesses. Corporation tax is down from 28% to 23%, and it is heading for a rate of 20% by 2015. A new business bank has been proposed, along with other lending schemes. There has been a response to the Lib Dem campaign to increase capital allowances, which went up tenfold in the last Budget. That is particularly helping small manufacturing companies to increase their investment in equipment. The one in, two out policy on regulation is also a great help, as is the setting of small business rate relief at 100% for two and a half years. Those measures and more are driving the economy forward, and have now created 1.4 million jobs.

Last week, a shadow Minister described his party as the party of small businesses. The laughter that greeted his statement almost brought the house down. If we look at what could have been done in 13 years and what this Government have done in three short years, it is quite clear to see who is out there supporting small businesses.

The Opposition propose a business rate freeze, which would give small businesses about £450 over two years. These measures give businesses £4,000 over two years—almost 10 times as much. They are certainly a great help to small businesses. We have heard about the FSB supporting them, and about the Small Charities Coalition doing the same, while the CBI has also welcomed them. If there is a coalition of those organisations, we know we are doing something right.

This Government are continuing to sort out the mess left by the Opposition, and the Bill will help to create jobs in our economy, will strengthen it and will make the national insurance system fairer.

Finance Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Ian Swales

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

We will have to wait and see. I just hope that my words are powerful enough to entice them to come through the Lobby with us, but I am afraid we will have to wait until a little later in the evening.

I was talking about one positive reason for a temporary VAT cut, but that would not be my main, or only, consideration. The purpose behind the cut would be to help the millions of ordinary people who would benefit from not having to pay those extra pennies and pounds every day to the Government, which they could then use to spend or save elsewhere as they saw fit. They could spend them on other goods and stimulate the economy in that way or they could keep them to pay off their debts. At the moment, many costs have been factored into the margins of businesses and many businesses have not yet raised their prices to meet this new inflation from both VAT and other spending increases. If we can keep prices down through the use of a temporary VAT cut and keep high street prices down with it, we will help families. On the other hand, if we can secure the margins for shops and companies, we will help business. I hope that Government Members will agree with that point. Either scenario would be a win-win situation for families and business. Negating a key element of inflationary pressure would also enable monetary policy to be kept loose for longer, which I would imagine is a key objective for the Treasury and the Monetary Policy Committee.

In closing last year’s debate on the effect that the VAT increase would have on the budgets of public sector organisations, the devolved Governments and charities, I asked the Government what analysis they had made of the impact that increasing VAT would have on the operating costs of those bodies, as one study had estimated that increasing VAT would cost charities alone an extra £150 million per annum. I would be grateful if the Minister addressed that specific point in winding up. We will be pushing for a division on new clause 9, as it would introduce a temporary reduction and is more likely to generate support across the House. New clause 6 would be our preferred solution in the long term, but I will not push it to a vote tonight.

[Ian Swales]

I rise to speak against new clause 6 and I note that we have had no costings from its proposer, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). I would be interested to find out what he thinks the policy would cost. I can report that there was no dancing in the streets of Redcar when the VAT was reduced from 17.5% to 15%, and neither have we had riots in the streets about the rises from 15% to 17.5% and then to 20%.