Intellectual Property Bill [Lords]

John Redwood Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman]

The point is that the people operating on a commercial scale are in a different category and should be dealt with much more severely. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman that education must be part of that strand, but I am uneasy about switching off the internet because, for example, the 12-year-old little sister of a 16-year-old who illegally downloads pop music might be unable to upload her school home work. That does not seem to be the right way to go about dealing with the problem. But if the governing party wants to charge into criminalising every teenager in the land—well, that is an election opportunity for them.

To make any of this happen, it is obvious that we must reform the Intellectual Property Office, which does not have an important role at the moment. The hon. Member for Hove said nothing about what should be done with respect to the industry. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire was absolutely right: we must have an EU approach. I know that that pains Ministers and means that they will have to see off the wilder shores of Euroscepticism, but this is a perfect example of where we need to see a European approach. Two points are particularly important: blocking sites that give people access to material they do not pay for; and requiring search engines to change their algorithms to prioritise legal sites. It is completely disingenuous for them to say, “Oh, we have received 5 million notifications and blah-de-blah-de-blah.” We all know that this is the root cause of the problem, so let us tackle it.

We must remember that this industry is one engine of growth in the British economy, but we must also take seriously the needs and the role of researchers in universities and in the British Library. We must update the law to allow them to have what they need: text mining for non-commercial research; heritage protection by digitising material; a workable private copying regime; and ensuring that the law overrides private contracts on digital material. The Hargreaves report came up with a number of proposals. Some were sensible—on orphan works and digital exchange—while others were perhaps more controversial, but one point on which I think we can all agree is that we do not wish to move the British economy to a litigious model, with the levels of litigation that are prevalent in the United States.

What I will say now relates in part to unregistered design. I have a concern about people putting patents on things that are part of the common culture, either here or overseas. For example, the recipe for a cucumber sandwich or people singing “Ring a Ring O’ Roses” at a children’s birthday party are a part of the common culture. Those examples might seem a little fanciful to hon. Members, but I will provide two examples where the common culture has been appropriated by some people to their financial benefit, and not necessarily to the financial benefit of all.

In the 1950s, some people collecting folk songs went to Teesdale in my constituency. They went right to the top of the dale and met some stonemasons. They got the stonemasons to sing songs and recorded them. They took the recordings away and shared them with people making music. One of the songs they recorded was “Scarborough Fair”. This was given to Simon and Garfunkel, who of course made an absolute fortune with it, and the stonemasons in my constituency made absolutely nothing. I think Simon and Garfunkel are great and they made a lovely production of the song, but it was a part of our common culture.

Today, we see this kind of thing going on in other industries. Sometimes there are glamorous models shimmying along the catwalk wearing prints that, not to put too fine a point on it, have been ripped off from people in Africa. The people in Africa, who have been making the prints for generations, get nothing, but the people who reproduce them patent the design and make an absolute fortune. I am sure that hon. Members agree that this need not to patent the common culture is something that we need to keep in our minds, so that we do not shift from one situation that deprives people who are genuinely making new, scientific innovations and discoveries, to a situation where we put legal attributions on every single idea and part of the common culture.

[Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

I am a little intrigued by the hon. Lady’s “Scarborough Fair” example. I presume that Simon and Garfunkel rightly had title to their particular performance, but surely they did not gain title to the song? I assume other people can go off and make their own arrangements of it without having to pay Simon and Garfunkel.

[Helen Goodman]

Unhappily, I think that that is exactly what did happen, and that was a mistake. I just want to caution the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool not to make that kind of mistake.

I remind Members that, although we are talking a lot about the implications of new technology, this is a very old problem. I am sure that some Members will know this poem, which is at least 600 years old and is absolutely on the point:

“The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Willetts]

I did not know that I had confirmed that! I must have strayed into that confirmation, as I was about to say that we are also fortunate in having a Minister for intellectual property. On several occasions when Members were talking about the need for a Minister for intellectual property, I could see that Minister up in the Gallery. Those comments were a disservice to my colleague, Viscount Younger of Leckie, who does an excellent job as the Minister for intellectual property. The IPO does have an enforcement role, and it works in parallel with the Home Office and other enforcement authorities, as the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) mentioned.

Several Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), asked where we are on copyright exceptions and what the next stages will be. There has been a consultation process on these provisions. It is correct to say that it has taken a long time; it is a complicated question. Given the technical nature of some provisions, we put out some draft regulations for further consultation, adding another stage to the process.

[Mr Redwood]

Will the Minister adjudicate on the little dispute about whether it is possible for an artist or theatre, for example, to take a very old play or song—it may be a non-trad or written by somebody long dead—and take over the copyright? I thought that was not possible— I thought it was possible to get a copyright for the production, but that a non-trad could not be copyrighted.

[Mr Willetts]

I am not aware of Simon and Garfunkel having gone around Derbyshire—