Pensions for Severely Disabled Victims (Northern Ireland)

Debate between John Penrose and Stephen Pound

Monday 22nd July 2019 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

Yes, I am delighted to say that as often as necessary, as it bears repeating and needs to be put on the record. I am delighted to have the opportunity to say it to my hon. Friend, too.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

May I tell the Minister that he did not fool any of us? We recognised the fact that he is not the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I profoundly hope that he survives what may be something of a Götterdämmerung later this week, because he has been a first-class Minister. I think I speak for the House when I say that we very much hope that he is in place after les évènements of this week.

I do not want to over-congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly)—I do not want to blight her career too much—but, not for the first time, may I say that I thank her for bringing this matter to the attention of the House? I must also thank you, Mr Speaker. As you know, the hon. Lady raised a point of order last week and you indicated, as only you can, that the door was open and had but to be entered. We now see the proof of that. I hope you will allow me in passing to congratulate the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) on the brilliant British Open in his constituency; I also congratulate Shane Lowry. The rain rather reminded me of high summer in Donegal at one stage, but the Open was superb and it showed Northern Ireland in such an excellent light. The more people who realise what a marvellous place it is to visit, the better.

I am very much with the Minister on this: we absolutely have to put down a marker on this issue once and for all. The point is that when we are dealing with issues of victims and the potential duality of some standards, it is almost like being in an egg-and-spoon race: we have to advance very slowly, very delicately and very carefully, because the potential for disaster is very high. I therefore state irrefragably, absolutely undeniably and completely without any possibility of misinterpretation that the Opposition do not wish to see any change in the definition of a victim as outlined in the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006—unless, of course, there is agreement from the Northern Ireland political leaders. Legacy issues are decided on in consultation with Northern Ireland political leaders and are legislated for in Westminster.

The Opposition have long been in favour of a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of troubles-related incidents. We do not believe in compensating the victim makers—it is important that we get that on the record once and for all. The victims and survivors pension hub is intended as recognition of the damage done to lives and livelihoods and not as a service to be accessed. The current definition of a victim was intended for use in application to services—originally for services such as healthcare, and latterly to the victims and survivors service.

If a system could be put in place through legislation in Westminster that provided a pension to those who have been injured—in some cases, as far back as the 1970s—and excluded those who were injured by their own hand, we would support that, and we think that there is a need for more definition. If it does not mean changing the definition of access to services, we, as a civilised society, should provide for all those who are in need. For that reason, the Labour Front-Bench team put forward an amendment that sought legislation but did not prescribe the form that it would take—mainly to try to get the amendment within the scope of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill.

Reference has been made to the House of Lords. The noble Lord Hain, a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, moved an amendment to the Bill in the upper House that I think defines the issue even more closely. Will the Minister address the four salient points contained in Lord Hain’s amendment? He referred to the regulations under subsection (1), which must make provision as to the eligibility criteria, particularly relating to

“the nature or extent of a person’s injury…how, when or where the injury was sustained…residence or nationality…whether or not a person has been convicted of an offence.”

We are as one on this issue. We want to support and give aid and succour to those who, through no fault of their own, have suffered what are very often life-changing injuries. They deserve better from this House and they will get better from both sides of it. We do not believe in pampering the victim makers.

[John Penrose]

I am delighted that the Opposition Front-Bench team support the broad principle, which I have just enunciated, and that we are of a very similar mind on this. That is extremely welcome news and I thank them for that.

I confirm that the four criteria that the hon. Gentleman read out from the new clause about victims’ payments are absolutely central to the process of working through the details about how we do the definition of who will be eligible for the new payment scheme. That will be the way we deliver on the central principle, which I hope I outlined very clearly in my opening comments: making sure that this is not a pension for terrorists.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Stephen Pound

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

May I say to the Secretary of State how grateful I am for her kind wishes? If she would care to join me in Strangers for a small sweet sherry later on, she would be most welcome. She will be aware that the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), who aspires to be the father of the nation—to be fair, he does have some expertise in the field of paternity—has announced his intention of creating a Monaco-style tax-free zone in Belfast, with, presumably, a border around that fair city. Does the right hon. Lady consider that proposal to be risible and ridiculous, or the product of an unfocused mind with no knowledge of Northern Ireland?

[John Penrose]

I join my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in wishing the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) best wishes for his 21-and-a-few-months birthday. I am afraid I cannot answer for my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson); that is a skillset I do not have.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Penrose and Stephen Pound

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

The hon. Lady is right to raise that concern, which has been raised on previous occasions because of the depth of worry. I would just reassure her that in the 52 years since section 5 was passed, there have been no prosecutions for failure to report a rape in Northern Ireland. I would add that an outgoing Director of Public Prosecutions in Northern Ireland said that it is very unlikely that anyone will face prosecution in future.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

The Minister appears to be presenting some new legislation to us. We are not familiar with the information he has just given, and I hope we can have a bit more detail.

I rise in sorrow and in anger to say that the roll-out of universal credit has had an unmitigated devastating impact on the poorest people in Northern Ireland. If universal credit is not good enough for the Minister’s constituents or my constituents, why is it good enough for Northern Ireland, where the level of long-term unemployment is twice the national average? Does he believe that making the worst-off worse off is acceptable?

[John Penrose]

I politely disagree with the hon. Gentleman, not least because unemployment in Northern Ireland has been falling steadily, which is one of the huge success stories of Northern Ireland’s economic progress since the troubles. The previous Assembly introduced some rather important legislation, which is still in operation, that mitigates some of the local concerns about the operation of universal credit in Northern Ireland.

Draft Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2019

Debate between John Penrose and Stephen Pound

Monday 11th February 2019 General Committees

[John Penrose]

I thank the Opposition for their kind support. I appreciate that I tempted fate by saying this is an uncontroversial piece of legislation, so I am grateful for their support to avoid my being proven too badly wrong. Incidentally, I remember fondly my excursion to Ealing, Southall, where I ate a great deal of curry, although I cannot say I troubled the scorers much more than that. It was a great time to learn the basics of campaigning. I think that the hon. Gentleman was first elected at the same time as I was not elected, but he was campaigning with a great deal more aplomb and certainly a great deal more success than I was at the time.

[Stephen Pound]

On a point of order, Mr Walker, the Minister and I both attempted to unseat the incumbent. In my case, it was Harry Greenway in Ealing North, and in his case, it was the late Piara Khabra in Ealing, Southall. One of us succeeded.

[The Chair]

I think that was a debating point, not a point of order. It was a very fine debating point.

[John Penrose]

Moving swiftly on, the hon. Gentleman asked about the process of appointments and what would happen in a couple of different scenarios, such as if incumbents were not going to stand or if people might not be reappointed. The simplest answer is that the process for all the appointments will be governed through the independent regulation process. That is either the Commissioner for Public Appointments for the UK or the Commissioner for Public Appointments for Northern Ireland. We are required to follow some very important and straightforward rules, and we will of course be following them in every case. I am not sure whether they necessarily require full consultation with Opposition parties, but they are designed to ensure a proper, independent and, as far as possible, entirely transparent and meritocratic process is followed. We will of course follow that wherever we can.

[Stephen Pound]

May I put down a marker and say that in the case of judicial appointments, we would very much appreciate at least being involved? I am not asking for a veto; I am saying that due to the serious and sometimes controversial nature of judicial appointments, we on the Opposition Benches would like at least to be in the picture.

[John Penrose]

The hon. Gentleman brings me neatly on to the second point he raised, which was about appointments other than those listed in the regulations. May I at this stage keep our collective powder dry and say that were we to need to add to the list in the regulations by bringing forward other SIs to extend it—everybody hopes we will not have to—that would inevitably be subject to the normal parliamentary process of scrutiny? I am sure that he will have an opportunity to raise that point and/or any others, depending on what other positions are listed in those potential SIs, as those other positions come forward.

I hope that has answered all the hon. Gentleman’s questions and that I have not tempted fate or tested anyone’s patience too much in our consideration of this uncontroversial piece of legislation.

Question put and agreed to.