Blacklisting

Debate between John McDonnell and Michael Meacher

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Meacher]

That is another very good question. I cannot give my hon. Friend the answer, but I see the force of his question, and I think it should be pursued.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

This is a valid point. The Blacklist Support Group discovered that the information passed on to the files goes beyond just workplace activities to demonstrations and all the rest, and that could only have come from the police or security services.

[Mr Meacher]

That is absolutely correct. As my hon. Friends suggest, this is not necessarily about the passage of information; it could involve photographs, often taken covertly.

I think that I am right in saying that only some 800 of the 3,200 people have been informed, as a result of making an application themselves. Three quarters of all those people still have no idea what ruined their livelihood for so many years. I would like the Minister to respond to this question: why should the Government not instruct the ICO to inform all the other three quarters that they were blacklisted?

My final point relates to where the issue is leading. The 44 construction companies now face a High Court battle about their alleged involvement in blacklisting. I will not pursue that point. However, significantly, eight of them have now decided to compensate some of the 3,200 workers, which might suggest that they believe that the evidence being revealed is now sufficient to prove their involvement—

Atos Healthcare

Debate between John McDonnell and Michael Meacher

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

I should say immediately that I have been informed that the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), to whom this debate is directed, has unfortunately been held up at Glasgow airport because his plane has developed engine trouble. Obviously I am sorry about that, both for him and for me, but I suspect that the speech to be delivered by his last-minute stand-in, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), will not diverge too dramatically from the one he would have delivered.

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this matter in an Adjournment debate, although I very much regret that it has been necessary to do so at all. It is unprecedented in all my 40 years’ parliamentary experience for a Minister to refuse point blank to receive a delegation, on a matter of acute public interest and importance, of representatives of a major section of the population who have, in their view, been targeted extremely unjustly by Government policy.

On 31 January, I wrote to the Secretary of State asking whether a delegation could meet him in his office to discuss the reforms that urgently need to be made to the work capability assessments for disabled people. I reminded him in my letter of the debate in the House on Atos, which I initiated on 17 January. In my view, it was one of the best debates I have experienced in the House for a long time. It was free from rancour and partisanship, but it was critical, detailed, passionate and well focused on the need for reform. Nearly 30 Members spoke and, although Members on both sides of the House acknowledged that there had been some improvements, they were without exception deeply critical of the fact that the fundamental structures remained deeply flawed. That, they said, was causing profound upset, distress, indignation, anger and a real sense of helplessness, and was, in many cases, making sick people even sicker as a result of anxiety and fear.

Although many Members targeted Atos Healthcare, the French company to which the assessments have been outsourced, it was notable that not a single Member from any part of the House defended the position of the Department for Work and Pensions on the descriptors, the regulations and the guidance that had been handed down by the Government to that firm. It was for those reasons that I sought the meeting with the delegation, and it never occurred to me that it would not be readily and promptly granted by the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Fareham. Not having had a reply to my letter throughout the whole of February, however, I tabled a parliamentary question asking when the Minister was going to reply.

Within 24 hours, after waiting more than five weeks, I did receive a reply from the Minister of State. It emerged when I spoke to the Secretary of State earlier this week that he had never seen my letter. The Minister of State’s letter, which I have with me, bluntly stated that his diary did not permit him the opportunity to see this delegation, which I take to be “civil service-ese” for a flat no. Frankly, I was taken aback, so I sought out the Minister in the Lobby and, as soon as he saw me, he said: “I’m not seeing you”. When I protested, he repeated “I’m not seeing you” three times. When I insisted that this was unprecedented and totally unacceptable, he finally said, “I’m not seeing Spartacus”—and repeated that three times.

That provides the basis for my seeking this Adjournment debate today. Spartacus is a group—initially hundreds but now thousands—of sick and disabled people whose lives have been dramatically affected by the welfare changes and who have come together as a loose collective, call it what we will, to share their own narrative with a wider public. Crucially, this work, which I have read through in detail, is evidence-based, used the DWP’s own figures and reports whenever possible, and has never been challenged on accuracy either by the DWP or the wider public. Spartacus always aims to provide a calm, credible and plausible response to the Government’s proposals, highlighting where it feels the proposals will have a damaging effect on sick and disabled people and promulgating that to the wider public.

The movement crystallised initially around the so-called Spartacus or “Responsible Reform” report, which set out an evidence-based analysis showing that the DWP had misled the public by claiming broad support for the abolition of the disability living allowance and its replacement with the new benefit of personal independence payments when there was, in fact, almost no public support at all. On the launch day, literally hundreds of thousands took part and the report trended at No. 1 or 2 on Twitter all day. Since then, the report has been widely used and quoted by the Work and Pensions Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and in several parliamentary exchanges in this Chamber. I think that says enough about the auspices and credibility of this group.

In addition, the Spartacus group has produced, as I said, a detailed and lengthy review of the work capability assessment procedure based on the lived experience— set out at great length—of 70 or more claimants, with additional comments from MPs, the courts, professional bodies and medical professionals, along with the findings of several freedom of information requests.

In the light of all that, I find it inconceivable that a Minister would refuse to meet a representative or representatives from a group who have a very powerful case to make—one that is strongly supported by hundreds of thousands of sick and disabled people—and whose records show, I repeat, that they have always argued their case with evidence-based rigour and well documented analysis. It is not as if Ministers have not yet met members of Spartacus. In the last year or two, they have done so repeatedly. Kaliya Franklin, for example, one of the people I named for the delegation, met the Secretary of State at the Conservative party conference last year, and I understand that it was a productive and courteous meeting, as I would have expected it to be. Kaliya also met the Under-Secretary last year and I believe that the discussions on disability and work were fruitful.

Sue Marsh, another leading member of the Spartacus group whom I included in the delegation, discussed employment and support allowance and work capability assessments with the former Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), for 45 minutes before they appeared on “Newsnight” together on 12 January. Both those disability activists had engaged in debate with the former Under-Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), numerous times on Radio 5 Live, Radio 4 and BBC TV. I simply cannot understand how the current Minister of State can conceivably, on the basis of any defensible argument, refuse this delegation.

Spartacus set out to engage with politicians. That is what it wanted to do: to create a movement with a credible voice that would be scrupulous in aiming for reasonable change, setting out reasonable demands that it believed were achievable. Yes, it does focus on the most damaging aspects of welfare reform and explain why they are harmful, as it might be expected to do, but it also offers alternatives which it believes will work and which are costed whenever possible. For the Minister to deny the engagement that Spartacus itself wants strikes me as bizarre and perverse.

Spartacus tells me that over the next few weeks it will produce a clear set of demands regarding ESA. Key to that will be the implementation of all—I stress the word “all”—the Harrington reforms now. Three years is long enough, and Harrington himself said in his year 3 review that progress had been too slow.

Of course, in trials in which all the changes are implemented, the rate of assessments falls from the current rate of between eight and 11 a day to perhaps four or five, but, crucially, this has led to nearly 100% accurate decisions. On the basis of that extremely important conclusion, I hope that Ministers will reconsider and agree to meet the delegation.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The Spartacus report was put together following a great deal of academic advice from my local university, Brunel. The whole purpose was to engage constructively with the Government to improve the system, and to consider basic reforms. Those people thought they would enter into a consistent dialogue with the Government. The absence of a ministerial dialogue undermines the whole exercise.

[Mr Meacher]

My hon. Friend is right. That is the whole point. The purpose is not to abuse the Government, but to engage in a rational, thoughtful dialogue in which each side listens to the other.

I realise that I could omit Spartacus from my request, but I am not prepared to do so because I do not believe that Ministers should have the right to pick and choose who is to be included in delegations they receive. It is not as if Spartacus members were rude or offensive, or did not have a powerful case to make. I would understand the Minister’s refusal in those circumstances, but they are, in fact, rational, plausible and eager to engage, and they have an extremely compelling message to which Ministers ought to listen.

I hope very much that the Minister concerned, who has displayed highly uncharacteristic defiance and intransigence, will change his mind, but if he does not, I will certainly not leave the matter where it rests at present. I will renew my request to the Secretary of State in a letter that I will personally deliver into his hands, so that this time the matter is brought to his attention.

Let me end by saying that I think it is tragic that we are having to waste time this afternoon discussing the composition of a delegation rather than dealing with the real issue, which is that hundreds of thousands of sick and disabled people have been subjected to real hardship, suffering and fear because they have been so bitterly mistreated under these regulations. They should be listened to directly, and that is the request to which Ministers should now respond.