Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John McDonnell and Andrew Selous

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Selous]

When I get back to my office I shall make it my business to read the hon. Gentleman’s Adjournment debate from 2000, as I recognise that he has a serious interest in this subject. Let me tell him the action that we are taking to deal with this issue. First, we accept, and act on, the many recommendations of the prisons and probation ombudsman. I also point out to the hon. Gentleman that the increase in deaths has occurred in a range of prisons in different circumstances, so there is no obvious pattern. We are putting additional resources and support into safer custody work and in particular into improving the consistency of the application of the case management system for prisoners identified as at risk of self-harm or suicide, and there is also additional support at regional level to share good practice.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

This morning the Minister very kindly provided to the Justice Committee for publication the latest figures on suicides in prisons for 2011, 2012 and 2013 and nine months of last year. They show a total of 256 suicides in our prisons during that period. At the same time the Minister provided us with the figures on the ratio of the number of prisoners to staff. It has gone up from 3.8 to 4.9 in the same period. Does he not see a correlation between fewer staff dealing with more prisoners and less safe prisons?

[Andrew Selous]

I recognise that the hon. Gentleman, who is a distinguished member of the Justice Committee, takes a serious and ongoing interest in this. As I said to the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), the rise in self-inflicted deaths has taken place in contracted prisons, which have not been subject to reductions, as well as in public sector prisons and prisons that have completed the benchmarking process, so there is no obvious connection between the two. I would just repeat what I have said: we look at every single death; we learn the lessons from the coroner’s report and the prison and probation ombudsman; we have put in extra resource both at prison level and at regional level to try to reduce the number of deaths; and we are absolutely as concerned about this as the hon. Gentleman rightly is.

Probation Service

Debate between John McDonnell and Andrew Selous

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Selous]

No. The hon. Lady will want to hear this because she made allegations about safety and so on. I know she will be reassured that the number of serious further offence notifications between 1 June and 30 September 2014 was 151. That was a reduction compared with same period of the previous two years, when the figure was 181 for both 2013 and 2012.

All hon. Members will know—not least the two distinguished members of the Justice Committee who are present, the hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)—that the level of serious further offences is an important indication of how well a probation service is doing. I hope that that reassures hon. Members.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Selous]

I give way to the distinguished member of the Justice Committee.

[John McDonnell]

I am not sure that I am distinguished.

Safety was absolutely key to the legal action taken by the National Association of Probation Officers before Christmas. The Secretary of State gave assurances in court that action would be taken by 1 February to address a whole range of issues of which we are unaware because the union is subject to a gagging clause. Will the Minister give us an indication—now, because the time is here—of the actions that have been taken, on a point-by-point basis, to address the concerns raised in court, therefore showing that there is no need for the gagging order to be in place at this stage?

[Andrew Selous]

In the six minutes that I now have left, I will try to put as much information on the record as possible. There is certainly no gagging going on here because I want to inform hon. Members as much as I can.

I move on to the speech made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. First, I thank him for his very kind remarks about me. Along with one or two other Members, he mentioned the position of the chief inspector of probation. First, as the CRCs are within the public sector, there is currently no conflict of interest. Secondly, I refer back to what the Secretary of State said in the Chamber not so long ago: the issue is under discussion and must be addressed. I cannot say more at this moment, but I reiterate the assurance given by the Secretary of State.

I was pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman praise probation staff. I, too, will take the opportunity to do that now. As the shadow Minister rightly said, they are a group of public sector workers who are often forgotten. They are not the first group of public sector workers who come to mind, but they do an absolutely vital job in the criminal justice system. I pay huge tribute to the important work that they do in keeping us all safe. The hon. Gentleman was also absolutely right to discuss the need to raise offenders’ ambition. We will not succeed unless we manage to do that; the issue is very close to my heart.

On the issue of voluntary termination clauses, raised by both the hon. Gentleman and the shadow Minister, I should say that they are standard Government clauses. When the Labour Government were introducing the flexible new deal, they used exactly the same clauses. We would not have had the healthy level of interest and attracted the expertise and commitment that has come in to bring down reoffending had we not used those clauses.

The hon. Member for Islington North talked about a race to the bottom on price. I make no apologies for the fact that value for money is an important consideration in the spending of taxpayers’ money, but I can absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman that we were highly rigorous about the quality of the bids. Every organisation that has bid has previous experience in the service area; that was extremely important to us.

The shadow Minister asked why we had not piloted the reforms. I say to her that the problem across the UK is so significant that we were determined to address it across the country. Conducting a number of small pilots would not have given us the opportunity to do that. She referred to a staff survey; unfortunately, in one of the staff surveys undertaken by NAPO, only about 10% of the eligible staff participated. We are dealing successfully with those issues as they come forward.

It is a good thing to have opened up the market to a diverse range of new rehabilitation providers. We are determined to continue to get the very best out of our public sector workers. We are extremely grateful for the expertise that has been introduced by the voluntary and private sector providers.

Hon. Members asked about the new payment incentives for market providers. They will be there so that we can focus relentlessly on reforming offenders, giving providers freedom from bureaucracy and the flexibility to do what works, but paying them in full only for real and significant reductions in reoffending. For the first time in recent history, virtually every offender released from custody will receive statutory supervision and rehabilitation in the community. We are legislating to extend statutory supervision and rehabilitation to all 45,000 of the most prolific group of offenders.

It is important to realise the cost of crime caused by reoffenders, which the National Audit Office estimates at between £9 billion and £13 billion across society. That is why it has been right to take forward these significant reforms to deal with the very serious issue of reoffending.