Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jo Swinson]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point about organisations that represent different parts of the Hindu and Sikh communities, and that is why it is important to point out that they do not only represent high castes: some of them represent low castes as well, and there is concern across the spectrum. It is a serious issue that requires serious consideration, and the Government are not ruling out legislation. We have the power to legislate under secondary legislation: what I am saying is that we are not convinced today that that is necessary.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I moved the compromise amendment that was accepted by the whole House. It provided that the Government would legislate if they could identify incidents of caste discrimination. The report identifies such incidents. It was not a matter of the form of legislation: it was a commitment to legislate. The Government are taking an extreme step backwards from what was agreed by the whole House in 2010, when it was opposed by those same organisations that the Minister has listed today. Traditional Hindus opposed Mahatma Ghandi’s attempt to outlaw caste discrimination in 1933.

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the work he has done on this issue over many years. I reiterate some of the concerns that we have heard from those groups. For example, GAKM UK, an organisation that represents a community officially recognised as low caste in India, fears that by enacting this provision, Parliament could undo all the work done by communities over the past 20 years to try to remove the differentiation by caste in all aspects of life. I am not saying that these are not important issues or that ultimately it would not be helpful to enact the provision, I am saying that we need to proceed with great caution, because the communities affected have significant differences of view. That is why we want to ensure that the EHRC makes a further assessment of the views and evidence on this issue, on which it will report back later this year. The Government have already said, through the work and the statement of the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald, and through discussions in the other place, that if the assessment shows that we need to legislate, the option remains open to us.

--- Later in debate ---

[John McDonnell]

I want to comment briefly—it is important that we hear from other Members in the time available—on the two issues with which this debate started.

I turn first to the Equality and Human Rights Commission. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said on Second Reading, the House of Lords has discovered that we are seeing the incremental abolition of the EHRC: cuts in its budget and staffing; the reduction of staff morale to an all-time low; the undermining of confidence in the organisation and its effectiveness among the wider community; and now—almost the killer blow—the undermining of its remit. That is what this is about, and it is a tragedy that it is a Liberal Democrat Minister bringing it about, because the Liberal Democrats supported us so effectively throughout the construction of the organisation.

I turn briefly to caste. As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, I moved an amendment to the Equality Act 2010. To be frank, it was not what we wanted. I supported the Rob Marris proposal to outlaw caste discrimination, but the two Front-Bench teams were anxious about outlawing it, so we worked cross-party. Liberal Democrat, Conservative and Labour Members sought a compromise agreement and we got it through the House. It was simple: if the Government were not convinced then that there was caste discrimination, they would undertake research, and the commitment was given—a cross-party promise—that if there was any evidence of discrimination, legislation would be forthcoming.

That evidence has now been brought forward. It is not numerous, but, as hon. Members have said, if one person is discriminated against, we should ensure that it does not happen. So there might not be the quantum, but there is the qualitative evidence demonstrating that discrimination is taking place. I say to the hon. Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) that I have had cases in my constituency of appalling levels of discrimination, but people are terrified of coming forward, because, without protection in place, it would reinforce the discrimination, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North said.

Today is about the fulfilment of a commitment, given on a cross-party basis, to legislate, if the evidence is there, to outlaw the discrimination. I am asking for that commitment to be upheld. My understanding of the position of the Labour Front-Bench team is straightforward. They support the outlawing of caste discrimination, which is why they support the Lords amendment. Detailed regulations would need to be introduced, as is always the case with anti-discrimination legislation, so I accept that further discussions would be needed, but let us establish the principle today.

I am an old-fashioned Marxist, but my politics over the past 30 years have also been shaped by my Asian constituents, who have taught me a lot. They have taught me about the role of Ghandi. As mentioned earlier, in 1933, his 21-day fast was followed by a year-long campaign that resulted, in 1947, in an Indian constitution that outlawed caste discrimination. My Sikh constituents have also taught me a lot. In Sikhism, caste discrimination is outlawed. I will quote from the Guru Granth Sahib, the holy book. It says:

“do not consider social class or status; there are no classes or castes in the world hereafter”.

To those Sikh organisations that have expressed consternation about some of the debate around caste, I say that what we have a chance to introduce today into British legislation is Sikh principles. The Sikh community in this country should be proud of that, and this House should be proud to say that we will outlaw caste discrimination once and for all. Let us do it on a cross-party basis.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—