Citizens Advice Bureaux (Birmingham)

John Hemming Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the city council is in fact offering interim funding to maintain the service, and that the CAB had not actually made proposals for any savings whatever?

[Jack Dromey]

rose—

[Jack Dromey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is proof positive, once again, that the Government are simply out of contact with the consequences of their actions. What is happening in Birmingham is clear beyond any doubt. The question that we will be asking today is what Ministers intend to do about it.

On the point about the council, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley asked whether the CAB had explored alternatives. It has explored alternatives repeatedly. I have seen the correspondence going backwards and forwards. The CAB has tried to find a way forward, but what has it been met with? Among other things, abuse from the cabinet member concerned, Councillor Ayoub Khan. Just when the CAB was looking for a co-operative approach to try to find a way forward, including making economies consistent with protecting the service to the community, it ran up against a brick wall.

[John Hemming]

Earlier, the hon. Gentleman claimed that there was no proposal for any funding from April onwards. In fact, there is a proposal to make interim funding available. That, to be fair, is something that I have discussed with the CAB.

[Jack Dromey]

There will be a crucial meeting on Monday next week. As things stand, the CAB will have no alternative but to close down its generalist advice services—no alternative. If, as a consequence of today, the Government say, standing by previous statements, that they mean what they say and that CAB should not close, and if the council sees sense, not only will the CAB celebrate, so too will the people of Birmingham.

If there is no change, let us bring home what the consequences will be for the people of Birmingham. All Members who represent Birmingham can give examples—the kinds of problems that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) sees as well—but I shall give the House three. First, a quote:

“I didn’t know what sort of help to get regarding family difficulty with breach of custody agreement. I was terrified that I may lose my son to a hostel and wouldn’t know who to go to about my rights as a father if it wasn’t for the CAB.”

That difficult family problem was successfully resolved.

Secondly, a client of the CAB, disabled and living alone in an empty flat on a low income with no furniture, had no idea about the support available—social tariffs for utilities, community care grant or budgeting loans for furniture. Thanks to the CAB, that disabled woman now lives in comfort and is properly supported. Thirdly, there is the case of a client with cancer, who without the help of the CAB would not have been able to challenge successfully a decision not to award her benefits.

The consequences for people like them, and for the people of Birmingham more generally, will be severe indeed. Where will they turn at their time of need, and just at a time when demand is increasing?

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[Jack Dromey]

My hon. Friend speaks from her great experience in Birmingham, Edgbaston. She is absolutely right: these services, including the one for immigration, are vital. The question then arises—Ministers will have to answer it—of where people will go if the fabric of our advice services is torn apart. As I shall say in a moment, it is not just the CAB; a total of 13 services will close in Birmingham.

[John Hemming]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the CAB is a vital service, but does he agree that it should not take an all-or-nothing approach but be willing to compromise with the city council and aim to maintain a service at a lower cost?

[Jack Dromey]

The hon. Gentleman is, to be frank, wrong. The CAB has made it consistently clear that it is prepared to do precisely that, but dialogue with Birmingham city council has proved to be a dialogue with the deaf. If he will speak out today and call on Birmingham city council, and join the Labour MPs of Birmingham in hoping that good sense will break out next Monday, that would be very welcome indeed.

[John Hemming]

I have been working with the city council on funding proposals to maintain a substantial part of the CAB service, so that has been happening.

[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) on securing this debate on what I agree is an important subject. I would like to thank the Members who intervened in the debate.

The hon. Gentleman used the adjective “admirable” on many occasions in describing the CABs in Birmingham, and I am sure that he meant CABs everywhere. I concur with him totally in that regard.

[John Hemming]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Davey]

In a second—I just want to finish this point.

Like other hon. Members, I have advice surgeries in my constituency every week. In fact, I have two every week, and have done so every week since 1997: every Monday morning at 8 am in my office, and on Thursday or Friday night, or Saturday morning. I spend between five and six hours—sometimes even nine hours—face to face with constituents every week, so I see many of the kind of cases that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington spoke about, whether about benefits, debt, housing or antisocial behaviour.

My staff and I work with the CAB in Kingston. We work with organisations such as Kingston Churches Action on Homelessness and several others to help the most vulnerable in our society, and we do that willingly, as does every Member in this Chamber. We understand the importance of the CAB. I understand the importance that it has in our society, whether it is called the big society or something else. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to get behind me in the queue to praise the work of the volunteers and professional staff of CABs in every community in our country and the work of the national organisation. I hope that when he hears my remarks, he will understand that the Government do support CABs.

[John Hemming]

It helps to put the history on record. Yes, the decision was taken in November that money needed to be saved in this area, but the objective was to maintain services, and, therefore, interim funding was made available. The CAB took the view that it was all or nothing; it wanted to continue interim funding at the same rate at which the funding was being withdrawn. To be fair, since then I have met with the chief executive of Citizens Advice, and although the meeting started with the position that it needed to maintain interim funding at the same rate, it has now agreed to look for savings, but that is far too late. I have a meeting with Councillor Ayoub Khan about the matter on Friday, and let us hope that the CAB, rather than issuing threats of legal action, is willing to co-operate to maintain services. I ask the CAB to co-operate to maintain—

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Order. An intervention should be short.

[John Hemming]

I ask that the Minister co-operates because there are other funding streams, which are also crucial.

[Mr Davey]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because it was helpful—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Davey]

I am afraid that I am not going to give the hon. Lady an answer to that question. It is important that, as this is being settled and as the meetings we have heard about—the one that has happened, the meeting on Friday, and the meeting on Monday—try to resolve the matter, they will ensure that any regulatory demands from central Government are met.

[John Hemming]

Does the Minister agree that the best way forward is for the CAB and the council to op-operate on how to maintain services, rather than issue threats of legal action?

[Mr Davey]

This is a wider point that applies beyond Birmingham. I certainly agree that it is important that local authorities and citizens advice bureaux in these difficult times try to work together. I will talk about that in a moment, if I can make some progress.

I can give a view from the heart. A few years ago in my constituency, my local council signed up to a three-year strategic partnership with Kingston CAB to ensure that it had stability of funding. That is one issue discussed in the debate. I understand that local authorities are under serious pressure at the moment, as are Government, Whitehall Departments and all those across the public sector. We have some difficult funding times, which is hardly a secret, and such long-term deals need to be seen in that context. From my local experience, I can recommend that strategic partnerships with key voluntary players, such as the CAB and the local council, can resolve such problems more easily.

[Mr Davey]

When I eventually get to that point in my speech, I will say that prior to today I was aware that there was transitional funding. I do not think that it has emerged in the past few minutes. [Interruption.] Labour Members need to hear this, because there is a backdrop to the debate, which is the record deficit that the Administration inherited.

We have had to take very difficult decisions. One of the most difficult decisions I have had to take as Minister meant telling the chief executive of Citizens Advice that his budget—this was before Gillian Guy took over—had to be cut in-year by a significant percentage. I did not like having to deliver that decision, but I knew that we had to take tough decisions because we have such a difficult spending climate. It is exceedingly important that those tough decisions are taken fairly and are implemented. Local authorities will have to face up to that issue—Birmingham city council, Kingston council and other councils as well. I shall give way to my hon. Friend, but I hope that he realises that I need to make progress after his intervention.

[John Hemming]

I presume that the Minister agrees that CAB funding in Birmingham was perfectly stable until the Labour Government almost bankrupted the country.

[Mr Davey]

It is very tempting to answer that question, but I shall make some progress.

As a result of the financial difficulties, all councils must re-examine how services are organised and run—finding efficiencies and unlocking savings. We have sought to make that task easier by scrapping most ring-fencing constraints on councils’ funding, so they have greater freedom to manage resources in the best possible way. That involves joining up back-office functions, sharing chief executives and other senior managers, and cutting out the duplication and waste associated with procurement. Where possible, that should not mean cuts to front-line services. We say that not only to Birmingham city council, but to all local authorities.

It is worth noting that, although all citizens advice bureaux are members of the national umbrella organisation, Citizens Advice, they operate independently. I am sure that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington will admit that at least. Their funding is determined locally. That is not new, but has been the case for many years under the previous Administration and the Administration before that. Funding is determined by the relevant local authority. That is how it should be, because the need for advice and such services varies dramatically across the country. I am sure that the needs of Birmingham are different from the needs of Kingston. There should not be any doubt about the fact that these should be local services.