Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Joanna Cherry and Kirsten Oswald

Tuesday 21st November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

3. Whether he plans to take legislative steps to help end violence against women and girls.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

4. Whether he plans to take legislative steps to help end violence against women and girls.

Legislative Definition of Sex

Debate between Joanna Cherry and Kirsten Oswald

Monday 12th June 2023 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir George. I thank the petitioners, the Petitions Committee and the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), who opened the debate on the Committee’s behalf. I am grateful to constituents and organisations who have been in touch with me.

I would like to make a couple of points to begin with. First, the tone of the debate has been mixed—that is the best way that I can describe it. Some of the language was not what I would consider measured. The hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) characterised some of it as “unedifying”, and that is true. Unfortunately, all too often, the tone of conversation about these issues is unedifying. In my experience, that is a problem. The people who lose out most because of that are not us, although I think it was the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) who pointed out that we will all have braced ourselves before standing up to speak today. The people most affected will be those directly impacted by the issue, but the change that is being sought is not likely to improve their life. As we have probably demonstrated quite effectively today, confusion would be likely to increase, to the detriment of trans people—and, potentially, women.

Members have repeatedly said that they are in favour not of changing the law, but of simply clarifying it, but it is a change that they are looking for. They are entitled to look for that change; I do not have to agree with it, but they are absolutely entitled to look for it. I do not know why that is the narrative. If they want to change the law, they should absolutely say that.

I am a middle-aged feminist woman, and increasingly a crabbit one, because I am fed up with the fact that women all too often still do not have fair treatment, or the rights that we absolutely should have. So let us hear much more about women’s rights. Let us hear about our rights in relation to buffer zones, and our reproductive rights—that is very topical today. Let us hear about our rights at work. Where is that employment Bill, which could have helped women so much? I could go on. Obviously this debate is not in that category, but the thing is that my rights are not diminished by someone else having their rights upheld. What endangers women is predatory and violent men. To be clear, the SNP’s support for trans rights does not conflict with our continued strong commitment to upholding rights and protections for women and girls under the Equality Act.

[Joanna Cherry]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am not going to give way to my hon. and learned Friend or anyone else. I have not intervened on anyone and for that reason, though I am grateful to her, I will continue.

I grew up and went to school in the 1980s. As I have said before in this Chamber, I thought that there were no LGBT pupils in my large secondary school. Obviously, I now know that that is absolute nonsense. It turned out that a number of my very close friends were LGBT, but I did not know that. Nobody did, because they did not feel safe to make their identity known because of the horrifically hostile environment at the time, with the section 28 debate and all. My real fear is that the current conversation about trans rights, including this debate—although maybe we should not call it a debate; nobody’s identity should be up for debate—is very similar in tone, and that is really damaging.

We have to be clear that trans people continue to suffer poorer outcomes. That needs to change, and the suggested amendment to the Equality Act would not change it in a positive way. I also point out that the Scottish Government need to be fully and formally consulted on any proposed material changes, including changes to the current definition of sex. Scotland’s Cabinet Secretary for Justice has written to the EHRC to seek clarification on that.

The reality is that recent communication on amending the definition of sex to biological sex represents a shift in direction by the EHRC, and that shift does not appear to have been made on the basis of meaningful evidence or meaningful consultation.

[Joanna Cherry]

Will my hon. Friend give way on that point?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am not going to give way.

The heat in this debate has appeared only quite recently. The polarisation I see taking hold here resonates with some of the culture war we see in the USA, where a very damaging narrative is taking hold that is imperilling the rights of women and of trans people in a very frightening way.

We have heard that there are a range of practical issues if this is the direction of travel, including confusion and a lack of clarity on basic things such as where you go to the loo. Obviously, people have been going to the loo without any issue for many years. Your appearance might suggest that you should go to the ladies, but what I am hearing today is that maybe you shouldn’t—how do you deal with that? That is actually rather a thorny issue and practically quite challenging for people. Unless you are going to accept huge breaches of people’s privacy, there is a significant unanswered question here.

The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) correctly raised the issue of intersex people. It is important to point out that biological sex consists of a wide range of characteristics. In many cases, people do not possess the sex characteristics that are typically associated with their sex. For instance, a large proportion of adult women do not ovulate. I am one of those women. I hear these debates and I do wonder. Of course, we have heard about intersex characteristics that do not neatly align with binary categories.

There is a significant amount of work that we need to do here. We need to consider the work of organisations such as Engender, which is Scotland’s feminist policy and advocacy organisation. It points to evidence indicating that attempts to amend the Equality Act to limit the definition of sex as a protected characteristic to biological sex risk regression in protections for all women, as well as disproportionate and harmful exclusion of trans people. It makes reference to a paper called “On the Basis of Sex”, which was written by Nicole Busby, professor of human rights, equality and justice at the University of Glasgow. It commissioned that work, which clearly concludes that the Equality Act’s use of non-restrictive definitions is a strength and, as we have heard already, a deliberate approach. It recognises that

“discrimination on the grounds of sex often arises in relation to…socially constructed gender roles rather than biological difference”.

Their concern, which I share, is that there is no legal precedent for the definition of biological sex, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) noted. That means that there is not a way of looking at how we support women’s rights to privacy, for instance. That kind of change could have regressive consequences: it could actually entrench gender stereotypes and biological determinism for women. These are things that the feminist movement has fought long and hard against. Those are the kinds of concerns, along with the utterly shameful disdain of the UK Government for Scottish democracy that was aired recently when they rode roughshod over the cross-party will of the Scottish Parliament on gender recognition. Transgender people should not be expected to be treated as some kind of convenient political football for constitutional wrangling. They should not expect to have their identities weaponised in the culture wars, which are causing so much harm in the USA. Please, let us not have that here.

[Joanna Cherry]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am trying to continue speaking despite interruptions from behind me.

We should accept that all of us present may disagree—we probably all have various different views—but let us imagine that we are all here with good will and not trying to do others down. We are here because we are saying what we believe to be the case. We started the debate with Mrs Cummins, who was previously in the Chair, telling us to be moderate, sensitive and respectful in our language, and that is how we should aim to continue.

To conclude, I point out that we are talking about a small group of the most vulnerable people. The hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) pointed that out very eloquently. They are the very people who should be able to expect their Governments to find ways to make life easier and support their rights. Our new First Minister, Humza Yousaf, set that out very well:

“I am firmly committed to equality for everybody, because your rights are my rights regardless of who you are. My starting point is that I’ve been a minority in this country for my whole life. I have understood that you have to fight for your rights but my rights don’t exist in a vacuum or in isolation. They only exist because other people’s rights exist too.”

All other rights matter. The suggestion that this change would improve our rights is simply not the case.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Joanna Cherry and Kirsten Oswald

Monday 19th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

What recent discussions he has had with devolved Administrations on delivering the Government’s levelling-up agenda.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

What recent discussions he has had with devolved Administrations on delivering the Government’s levelling-up agenda.

Stillbirth

Debate between Joanna Cherry and Kirsten Oswald

Thursday 9th June 2016 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir David. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) for securing this debate and for her heartfelt, considered and important contribution. It will have made a difference to many families, and I believe it will truly help to drive improvements.

We have heard about Sands. Sands awareness month should be a matter of concern to every Member of this House. Stillbirth can affect any family, and it is vital that we give it proper consideration and have ample time to discuss the varied and complex issues that surround it. I understand that stillbirth is a topic that is so hard to think of, let alone to debate here, but if we do not, we miss the opportunity to confront issues facing children and families who have been affected throughout Scotland and the UK. They deserve our attention and consideration.

I know that many people have their own personal experiences to draw on; I am very fortunate that this is not an experience I have had directly. I cannot say how thankful I am for that, and for the excellent care that I was fortunate to receive during my two pregnancies. But, like many here today, I know that not everyone has had experiences like mine. Far too many people watching today will have experienced the heartbreak of stillbirth. I will never forget a little girl who would have been the very same age as my eldest son, but who was stillborn. That is one of the memories that will stay with me forever. It is important that we remember all these children and acknowledge them.

We are fortunate to have access to excellent House of Commons Library briefings for debates. I was struck by the introduction to a briefing relating to this debate, which said:

“When a baby dies the impact on a family can be profound, with many parents reporting symptoms of anxiety and depression for years after their baby has died.”

I appreciate that that statement was included in that briefing because, although it seems obvious to all of us here today, it needed to be written down and put in black in white to be absolutely clear. There can be few things that anyone will ever have to deal with that are more difficult than the loss of their baby. It will have a terrible impact on family members, and for a long time. It is not something parents or families will ever forget about.

It is also vital that we continue to take steps to look at why stillbirth happens and what we can do to minimise the instances and increase awareness among medical professionals and parents of anything that might cause concern and be worth looking at.

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) on her very moving speech. Some Members may be aware that before I came to the House I specialised in medical negligence law, mainly acting for pursuers, or plaintiffs as they are known south of the border. Drawing on what our hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said, does my hon. Friend agree that what is most important in cases where there has been medical mismanagement is a prompt investigation, a prompt apology and an undertaking to ensure that whatever lessons are required to be learned are learned?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I agree entirely with my hon. and learned Friend.

Stillbirth rates remained largely unchanged from the late 1990s to 2011. More recent figures have shown a decline, and the rate is now at its lowest level since 1992. Of course, that is positive, and there is undoubtedly a desire from both the UK and Scottish Governments to progress towards improving those figures further, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran said, a desire is not enough: real action is needed. Maureen Watt, the then Scottish Public Health Minister, noted that

“The Scottish Government responded to a parliamentary petition in 2010…by forming a stillbirth working group and setting an aim in 2012 to reduce stillbirths by 15 per cent by 2015”.

She also noted a subsequent reduction of 18% in stillbirth rates, which

“shows that a combination of approaches”

can make an impact. Importantly, she stated that

“ministers were determined to reduce rates further.”

As my hon. Friend said at the beginning of her speech, this is not an issue of party politics, as I am confident that everyone present agrees; it is about finding ways to improve prospects for babies and preventing heartbreak and loss for families. We can all agree that this issue should have our support.

I am pleased that Scotland has made progress on reducing the stillbirth rate in recent years and similarly that the UK has made progress, but there is much work to be done and we must commit to focusing on that. It is also important that mothers who go through this traumatic and heartbreaking experience are offered the appropriate support and care, and have access, as my hon. Friends have said, to a complaints process that is open and transparent and offers opportunity for redress.

The comments made about the importance of investigation and the role of coroners are worth considering. It was interesting to see the Royal College of Midwives in The Lancet stating:

“Attention to preventing stillbirths in approach to term and 36 weeks plus must be improved”,

and that more must be done, just as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran. We need to focus our minds on the stark statistics that she has told us about. One third of stillbirths happen at term—37 weeks’ gestation or beyond—and in the vast majority of all stillbirths we never know what has befallen the baby. These areas need to be addressed with as much energy and urgency as we address important messages regarding maternal health and wellbeing.

Researchers for the Campaign for Safer Births have estimated that approximately 500 babies die every year because of avoidable factors during birth. Many are left permanently brain-damaged or disabled. They believe that all these tragic deaths and injuries could be avoided with better care. They aim to raise awareness of the issue, which my hon. Friend has surely helped to do by securing this debate today. They want to see safety improvements in maternity units and the provision of information to those who have experienced poor care or negligence.

I believe that a combination of approaches, such as those adopted by the Scottish Government, can make a material difference, but it is clear that we must be committed to driving change if we want to continue to reduce stillbirth rates. That will not happen without continued targeted action. The stillbirth group established by the Scottish Government has provided evidence that the stillbirth rate has fallen in Scotland since it commenced its work. There are 15 maternity units in Scotland taking part in a UK-wide study looking at foetal movements, which we have heard are a vital indicator, and, in particular, at how units respond to women who report decreased foetal movement. I am hopeful that there will be further progress in Scotland and the UK in this very important area.

In March 2015, the Scottish Government appointed Catherine Calderwood, an obstetrician and gynaecologist who was the national clinical director for maternity and women’s health for NHS England, as chief medical officer. That is important. Her work on reducing stillbirths and neonatal deaths in Scotland and avoidable harm in maternity services will be influential as we continue to push for vital further reductions in the number of stillborn babies. Those stillborn children are our children—they are our families’, our friends’ and our neighbours’ children—and we can best respect that by supporting continuing research, encouraging open conversations about stillbirth and helping to break down the taboos that are still all too prevalent. As politicians, we must push for new research and new ways of working, and encourage real dialogue among medical professionals about stillbirth, particularly where things have gone wrong with the care provided.

I express again my admiration for my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran for securing this most important debate, and to the other speakers who have contributed.

Financial Conduct Authority

Debate between Joanna Cherry and Kirsten Oswald

Monday 1st February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (James Berry) raised the case of an independent financial adviser. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that independent financial advisers, many of whom were also investors in the fund, risk continuing to be blamed for losses relating to it because of the FCA’s continuing failure to investigate within a reasonable timescale?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I agree with my hon. and learned Friend. The system regulated by the FCA, which the Chancellor wants people to rely on, continues to fail to provide all these investors with compensation, or even an explanation, for their loss.

Mr Devon and many others have been, and are being, misled. Even if an ordinary investor approaches the UK’s financial services sector through an independent financial adviser and asks for a secure, low-risk investment, their money can disappear, and their financial plans and their life can be turned upside down, while agencies that cost millions of pounds to run fail to deliver.

Mr Devon’s investment was in an unregulated collective investment scheme. That might sound highly technical, but it may not be so complicated. In workplaces all across the country, one or two people voluntarily run savings groups, or ménages, where colleagues regularly save money and take turns to receive a lump sum. Depending on the size of the workplace, the sums involved can be significant. That is such a simple operation that the phrase “couldn’t run a ménage” is a common description for someone who is a serial failure at even basic tasks.

Surely, in relation to the Connaught fund, a group such as Capita must be able to do a better job of running a collective financial operation than workmates who have run workplace ménages for years. On the contrary, Connaught became a warning that when players in the UK financial services sector go rogue, the systems for regulation, enforcement and restitution fail to protect our investors. When problems with Connaught emerged, Capita turned tail and ran. It has been allowed to continue evading its responsibility to investors through years of regulatory inertia and confusion.

The financial services sector in the UK has run foul of the law and lost millions—indeed, billions—of pounds too many times. The phrase “couldn't run a ménage” seems an apt description of too many of the organisations and individuals who provide the sector with its leadership. Just like the regulators that oversaw the crash of 2008, the FCA, Financial Ombudsman Service and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme seem to be part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. Even fighting a case all the way through the system may well leave an investor significantly out of pocket. This is definitely a system that does not do what it says on the tin.

I was not shocked to find that the Treasury grabs the regulatory fines, but should they really be grabbed from an industry where the cost of regulation, enforcement and compensation are borne by those in the industry and its customers? We need to look seriously at how we provide more effective regulation, enforcement and compensation, and we should also review the levies and fines. One of the gaps could be filled by giving the FOS a role in enforcing payment of compensation, removing the need for an additional set of fees and ensuring more consistency in investors’ ability to secure the compensation awarded. I have particular concerns about the operation of professional indemnity insurance in the IFA sector. When insurers exempt schemes known to be causing concerns, that undermines the reality of IFA protection and causes significant problems for them. The FCA needs to look at making significant changes to the insurance rules. It could perhaps examine the operation of the Scottish solicitors’ “master policy” and the highly successful Association of British Travel Agents and ATOL—air travel organisers’ licence—industry-wide indemnity schemes.

I want to conclude by commenting on the relationship between the Government and the FCA. It is interesting that in the week before this debate the FCA announced the appointment of a new chief executive, Andrew Bailey. It is widely reported that Mr Bailey was hand-picked for the post from the Bank of England by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I find this surprising in the light of an exchange I had with the Economic Secretary during a recent debate on the Connaught fund. When I queried the fact that neither the Chancellor nor any other Treasury Minister held a single bilateral meeting with the FCA over a two-year period, she did not contradict me, and I have heard nothing to suggest that it is incorrect. I understand that the absence of such meetings may be intended to give an appearance that the FCA acts as an independent agency, but if the chief executive is hand-picked by the Chancellor, having not even applied for the post, what does that say about the FCA’s independence? Of course there is regular correspondence and interaction between the Government and the FCA, so during a time of such pressure on the financial services sector, why was there not a single bilateral ministerial engagement with the FCA over such a long period? The absence of such meetings perhaps has more to do with protecting Ministers than protecting the independence of a body whose principal officers are headhunted at the Chancellor’s bidding.

As someone steeped in the issues of banking governance and the recovery of the banking sector from the low points of recent years, Mr Bailey could demonstrate his independence very easily by signalling his desire to have the FCA reinstate the inquiry into banking culture. Failure to do so may be interpreted as the inquiry having been ditched to clear the way for him taking up his post. If that is the case, his tenure will not get off to a positive start, and questions over the independence and integrity of the FCA will continue to grow.