Pub Companies

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Toby Perkins]

I was with the hon. Gentleman for a bit. I have referred to one of his hon. Friends, but if he is disappointed that I did not mention him, I apologise. I do not mean to be ungallant, but the Under-Secretary’s first contribution to the debate was to tell the House that self-regulation was working and there was nothing else to say on pubs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

rose—

[Toby Perkins]

I do not know quite how the Under-Secretary has got into the position of taking credit, but we might be about to find out.

[Jo Swinson]

It might be helpful to the House to clarify that I did not make the contribution the hon. Gentleman describes to the House or anything else. I am not sure where he gets his information.

[Toby Perkins]

I will be talking about the quotes attributed to the Under-Secretary by the Morning Advertiser. She is welcome to take the paper to court if they are not true, but it says that she said that, so I was working on that basis.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) referred to the role of the Secretary of State, who made it clear when appearing before the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on 20 July 2010 that he would honour the previous Government’s commitment. I have no idea why he did not honour that commitment—it should have been honoured 18 months ago. Perhaps it was naivety or a generosity of spirit that does him credit—the belief that, this time, the pubcos would know that the Government were serious. I do not know, but we should be clear that the delay has been costly for the industry and catastrophic for some victims.

Let no one say that the pubcos were not given long enough or that there has been a rush to legislate. Make no mistake: when the Committee said that statutory regulation was needed, it was the reluctant conclusion of Members who had taken every possible step to avoid making that recommendation. Given the breadth of support for the Committee’s stance, it is hardly surprising that there was dismay when the previous Minister, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), decided instead a year ago to give the pubcos yet another final chance.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

I thank all Members who have contributed to this afternoon’s debate. We have heard speeches from 18 Members and interventions from many more.

I particularly thank the Chair of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), and his predecessor, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), for the work they have done on this issue over many years, which is a good example of the effectiveness of Select Committees working in a persistent, constructive and responsible way. Many other Members have campaigned on this issue for many years, including the hon. Members for Northampton South (Mr Binley) and for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), who made a typically powerful contribution to today’s debate and has done so much with the all-party save the pub group, and my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who introduced a private Member’s Bill a couple of years ago. I also thank the many thousands of constituents up and down the country who have taken an interest in this issue, whether as landlords or, as the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) put it, “practitioners” of pubs.

In what was a generally consensual debate, the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) proposed potential court action. I can reassure him that it is not necessary, because the Morning Advertiser corrected the article that had incorrectly attributed quotations to me. I can confirm to the House that I did not say that the self-regulatory approach was working.

Today we have heard stories from Members in all sorts of constituencies of publicans who have faced real injustice and unfairness—horror stories about rent hikes out of kilter with the market, about extra charges and add-ons that they did not know about when they signed up and about people who have been driven out of business. For me, one of the most shocking figures is the comparison between the incomes of tied lessees and of those publicans who are in non-tied leases. Almost half of tied lessees earn less than £15,000 a year. That is an astonishing figure, when we consider the long hours that people put into running their pubs, and the fact that that income is often shared by a couple. The figure for non-tied lessees earning less than £15,000 a year is 22%, or one in five. The Government will be acting on this, and I welcome the broad cross-party support for what we are doing.

We have heard some horror stories this afternoon, but there have also been some lighter notes in the debate. We have heard about pubs being the scene of a range of events. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) mentioned the “dragon”, Hilary Devey, working undercover in a pub. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) talked about being the first Cornish MP to pull a pint in her local pub. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) talked about the three shifts that he had done as a barman in his local pubs, and told the House about the Pendle beer festival. I understand that you also have a pub as a neighbour, Mr Deputy Speaker. We heard from the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) about the triumph of the Bridge End winning CAMRA pub of the year, and the hon. Member for Chesterfield told us about his drinking mineral water in his local pubs. Perhaps the most touching story was that of the romance and engagement of the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero).

The Chair of the Select Committee rightly said that what we are doing will not be a panacea, but it will help. Members raised a range of other issues, including the beer duty escalator, on which we had a debate in the House recently. That is a matter for the Chancellor, and I am sure that Treasury colleagues will be following this debate closely through Hansard.

[Andrew Griffiths]

rose—

[Jo Swinson]

I am sorry. Owing to the lack of time, I must press ahead with my summation.

A differential beer duty was suggested, but it would not be possible to introduce such a scheme on the basis of where alcohol was being sold. However, the Government have already acted on a differential duty in relation to the strength of beer. In October 2011, the duty on high-strength beer rose and the duty on low-strength beer fell. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle made an important point about minimum pricing, which could help pubs to regain an advantage when competing against low-priced supermarket booze.

My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) said that regulation might not be needed. That might not be a popular argument today, but I understand what he is saying. It is right that the Government should regulate only as a last resort, and that we should seek alternative solutions first. We have sought solutions, however. The industry was put on notice last year and, sadly, it has not delivered. My hon. Friend also mentioned his concern about a two-tier system. It is right that we should focus regulation on those with the greatest market power. That is proportionate because the evidence shows that the greatest problems are in that part of the industry.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State mentioned, the consultation sets out that that regulation would relate to the six largest pub companies, with a threshold of 500 tied or tenanted properties. Those companies would be Punch, Enterprise, Marston’s, Greene King, Admiral and Star. Our consultation will listen to views on what the right definition and the threshold should be. I hear the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) that the threshold should be lower than 500. I encourage hon. Members who have a view on those issues to contribute to the consultation.

There has been much debate on the free-of-tie option this afternoon, and there are arguments on both sides. The hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) said that the tie must go, but I believe that the beer tie can be important, especially for small family breweries such as those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler). Indeed, in January 2011, CAMRA stated:

“Without the right to tie pubs, the Family Brewers wouldn’t bring their beers to the bar. Closures amongst the smaller brewers would be inevitable. The tie is a viable way for them to run their pubs.”

The problem is not the tie, as such, but the abuse of the tie.

[Toby Perkins]

Will the Minister give way?

[Jo Swinson]

I will give way briefly; I am conscious that I must respond to the debate.

[Toby Perkins]

There has been a great deal of cross-party agreement in the debate, and many people will be watching it on television. Will the Minister confirm that she will support our motion, so that we can all work together and ensure that we get to where we want to be?

[Jo Swinson]

I can confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we will support the amendment, which does something that his motion does not do—namely, it proposes the introduction of an adjudicator, on which the Government are going to consult. I believe that that is essential, but it is missing from the hon. Gentleman’s motion. However, I welcome the fact that he has brought this topic forward for debate today.

“A new independent statutory code of practice should be imposed to uphold the prime principle—that the tied tenant should be no worse off than if free of tie”.

Those are not my words, but those of the Independent Pub Confederation. That is the key principle on which the new statutory code should be based. This will be looked at across the board—taking into account the profits, the prices, the insurance, other benefits and the rents—and the adjudicator will be able to look at the whole picture. Having higher beer prices mitigated by lower rents and business support is a valid business model, but having higher beer prices and higher rents is just a rip-off. As the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said, the combination of the two is what causes the problems.

Let me deal briefly with the process and timetable. The Government propose a consultation of six weeks, and we will publish it as soon as possible in the spring. The adjudicator would have to be established by primary legislation, and we are keen to press ahead with the timetable. The House’s support will be helpful in that regard. We will consult on the details in the consultation, and I encourage those interested to ensure that they set out their views. To respond to an earlier query, the consultation will include the future role of self-regulation and of the Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service. The power to fine, which the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) mentioned, is certainly envisaged for severe cases, which will of course be decided by the adjudicator.

In conclusion, we want to build a stronger economy and a fairer society, and the Government’s action on pubs will help to achieve both objectives. It will create a stronger economy because pubs are an important part of it, and this will help them to thrive. As for a fair society, pubs are also an important part of our communities and this action will help to put a stop to lessees being treated unfairly by large companies and to abuse of the beer tie. This is good for publicans, good for pubs and good for the public.

Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.