Northern Ireland Veterans: Prosecution

Debate between Jim Shannon and Sammy Wilson

Monday 14th July 2025 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Lewell. I commend the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) for setting the scene on behalf of the Petitions Committee.

We have all spoken about this subject repeatedly, but let me be very clear that I will not tire of speaking up for our veterans about these entirely vexatious prosecutions. I declare an interest as somebody who served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years as a part-time soldier in an anti-terrorism role, and served for 11 and a half years as a member of the Royal Artillery—that was obviously a cold war role. The fact was that to be a soldier in Northern Ireland, whether in the Ulster Defence Regiment or any other regiment, was to be under threat.

I want to take up the comment of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk about the yellow card. As 18, 19 or 20-year-olds, we read out our yellow card every night before we left. Not one of the soldiers I served alongside, or any I knew, ever disregarded that yellow card. The role that a soldier had to play was quite clear.

We all know why these cases exist. To say that they are seeking justice does not paint the whole picture. The cases are pressed by republicans in an attempt to whitewash the history into a Hollywood version that paints them as freedom fighters oppressed by an evil regime. Well, they were not. The blood of those who were murdered at chip shops, burned alive with a napalm-like substance when out for a meal in a restaurant or mowed down with machine guns when attending their church—the blood of these innocent victims cries out against all attempts to change that appearance from pure evil to justifiable. These atrocities and crimes can never, ever be justified. There is no Hollywood lens that could make the Omagh bombing—there will be a debate about that in the main Chamber shortly—seem like it was in pursuit of a noble cause. It was not, and it never could have been.

The reason why these soldiers were stationed in Northern Ireland was to deal with the very real and lethal threat from paramilitaries of all beliefs—loyalist and republican alike. It was under that threat that the soldiers operated. I was just saying this to one of the girls in the office last week. In March 1971, three off-duty Scottish soldiers were lured from a bar by an IRA operative and murdered along the road on the way to a party. They were not on duty; they were off duty, but the IRA saw them as targets.

When our British Army personnel were on duty, they were checking cars at road checkpoints to find razors hidden in car seats with the express purpose of injuring them. They were ambushed on the roads, shot at and killed or maimed. The circumstances in which they operated were not those of war as it had been known—it was guerrilla warfare, and these men were on constant high alert. Indeed, their mental health continues to pay the price today for that high state of alert.

The reason why I highlight that is twofold. First, the high state of alert in a situation that is highly charged and in which men know that their life is on the line at any second means that a split-second decision that they took 40 or 50 years ago may be difficult for them to remember and justify now. To expect these men to come to court to give an account on the detail of cases is simply untenable, especially as they were previously investigated and told that there was no case to answer, so you can understand, Ms Lewell, why we ask the question, “Why do it again?” Secondly, there is the harm from men trying to put themselves back in these positions. In terms of their mental stability, it is incredibly difficult and, indeed, can be damaging. To ask them to go back there is simply traumatising those who did nothing but follow an order.

Were we to be discussing cases in which soldiers or personnel went off on their own cognisance and carried out an attack, by all means hold them accountable and let them mount their defence, but that is not what we are questioning here. Today, we are asking 80-year-old men how they carried out the order 50 years ago, what they saw when they carried it out and why they did that. This is simply not fair or just.

The Army reviewed decisions taken at the time and brought people to justice for miscarriages of justice. The Government cannot come into a civil court 50 years later and retraumatise these men for doing what their officers required of them when there is no case to answer. That is why I believe these vexatious claims must stop. There can be no true justice from them when these men were acting under orders, and we cannot send this message to serving personnel today.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Will my hon. Friend take an intervention?

[Jim Shannon]

A pithy one, Sammy, if you know what pithy is.

[Sammy Wilson]

Will my hon. Friend accept that people being dragged to court, sometimes for the second or third time, is not about justice or accountability, but about harassment and an attempt to find ways of rewriting history, and that is why this is so wrong?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, that was pithy—well done. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is the rewriting of history and an injustice done to soldiers who served. There are many in this room who served; indeed, the Minister for Veterans and People is an honourable and gallant Member.

I will conclude with these words, because I am conscious that others want to speak and I am certainly not going to take any more than my five minutes. These men served in circumstances that I can well remember, because I served alongside them. Many in this Chamber may not be able to imagine what that all meant. They laid it on the line to protect us, and we have, I believe, a duty to protect them from the reimaging that Sinn Féin-IRA seek to carry out to justify their evil events. We can never believe that this was a fight for freedom. This was a fight against a faceless, brutal, murderous enemy that haunts service personnel to this day.

National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Sammy Wilson

Committee of the whole House & 3rd reading
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson]

We have seen over the last five months that growth has already been impacted. Of course, the OBR has indicated that in two and three years’ time, growth will be impacted negatively as well. I do not think that one can hide behind those arguments. As I said, I hope that I am wrong, but I suspect that all the economic logic on the impact of this measure and what we are already hearing from employers indicate that that is not the case.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The reality is that those who own businesses in my constituency tell me that they will have to look at reducing wages and reducing numbers. Because of the Government’s policy, those working in doctors’ surgeries will have to look at a reduction in numbers as well. Whether Government Members like it or not, this measure will impact on small and medium-sized businesses and on GP surgeries. That is the reality. The Government are to blame for a recession—there really is talk about it. If a recession comes, the Labour party will be responsible.

Aerospace Industry: Northern Ireland

Debate between Jim Shannon and Sammy Wilson

Monday 22nd July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me the opportunity to speak on Government support for the aerospace industry in Northern Ireland. It is not unique, but it is quite unusual for me to be leading an Adjournment debate instead of intervening in it. I hope that plenty of Members will take the opportunity to intervene on me.

Northern Ireland is an aerospace hub. We have worked long and hard to make it so, and for good reason: we are an anchor for the aerospace industry. It is something that we have built on over the last number of decades, and from suppliers to highly skilled labour Northern Ireland is a global force for aerospace. Invest NI has highlighted this, saying:

“Northern Ireland Aerospace & Defence offers a true turnkey supply solution with design, manufacture, certification and testing in one hub. The level of proximity and cohesion is unique—120 firms within 1 hour drive of each other, a high density of suppliers across all elements of the aerospace supply chain, from design and manufacture (world leading capabilities in machining, composites, polymers), to coatings, assembly, certification & testing. Our high performing and consistently reliable supply chain can meet customers’ needs at pace and with industry leading quality performance. These companies are engaged at the leading edge of advanced aerospace design and manufacturing. Every major commercial aircraft programme depends on structures, components and expert services from Northern Ireland…World-class universities and an extensive network of further education colleges provide excellent academic and vocational training.”

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Is my hon. Friend pleased that Northern Ireland has tens of thousands of jobs in the industry? We are a major exporter as a result of the aerospace industry, and when people fly around the world, a third of the seats on aircraft are made in Northern Ireland. That is an amazing figure, showing how important the industry is not only to Northern Ireland but to Great Britain and the UK.

[Jim Shannon]

I am always happy when my right hon. Friend intervenes, and that exactly underlines why Northern Ireland is so important. It plays above its status, with its population and the skills force that I have referred to.

I should have said, and I apologise for not doing so, how pleased I am to see the Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade, the hon. Member for Croydon West (Sarah Jones), in her place. I very much look forward to engaging with her over the next period of time. I am also pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson), in her place. She was in my constituency approximately six or seven weeks ago. She came as a shadow Minister and I told her that the next time she came, instead of asking the questions, she would have to answer them, so I look forward to the next time she comes to Northern Ireland. I am really pleased to see both ladies in their place, and to see the shadow Minister here as well.

To reinforce what my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, there is an existing talent pool, with more than 34% of Northern Ireland’s workforce having a third-level qualification, and costs are significantly lower than EU, US and UK averages. Operating costs are up to 30% lower than on the UK mainland or in the EU. I say with great respect and humbleness that Northern Ireland candidates consistently outperform those from other UK regions at GCSE and A-level examinations, and with a strong partnership between academia, industry and Government driving skills development in the region, it is little wonder that we are thriving. I want to say how pleased I am at that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman and I have been friends for many years. I am pleased that he has been able to participate in the debate; he said he would if the opportunity arose. I agree with what he says, and I think the Minister will underline it her response.

[Sammy Wilson]

Given the difficulties with the apprenticeship levy and the way in which firms in Northern Ireland have lost out, does my hon. Friend wish, like me, that the Government will remedy that situation, so that when firms in Northern Ireland pay into the apprenticeship levy, they can benefit from that in training young people?

[Jim Shannon]

That is another issue for the Minister. I wholeheartedly agree with what my right hon. Friend says, and others do as well. An anomaly needs to be addressed; hopefully the Minister can do that. I want to stand by workers who have come to me seeking assurances, so I look to the Minister to provide those assurances.

I seek an assurance that the Government understand the nature of aerospace in Northern Ireland, and how essential the Spirit operations are to our economy and employment. The Belfast site is a global leader in aerostructures, with unique end-to-end capabilities through design and development, testing and manufacture, to after-market support. The operation has engineering and technology leadership in advanced materials and ultra-light structures, in particular unique advanced composites capabilities, which it is further developing for commercial, defence and space applications.

Spirit does so much, and it can do so much more for Northern Ireland. Its extensive expertise has led to significant investment in R&D and engineering skills and capabilities over many years. The investment can and must continue to support the key role that Northern Ireland plays in the UK-wide sector. I always say what a pleasure it is to be an MP in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I think we are better together wherever we are. We can exchange ideas and advance things; that cannot be overstated enough and must be made crystal clear.

It is clear the site is ready for a buyer and that a Government standing by the industry, ready to continue investment in R&D and site improvements, will make this even more attractive for purchase. The Government are aware of the crisis looming over Northern Ireland manufacturing, with the difficulties in Harland and Wolff. Indeed, the Government released a written statement about that today. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has been at the fore of trying to address that issue. Whatever the reasons may be, we look forward to the hopeful possibilities of something that has the potential to get us beyond the problems we have today.

However, the outworking of these issues at this time is that the workers at Spirit cannot help but fear that there is trouble, not simply in the water with the shipping industry, but in the air with factories in Morocco and Mexico seeking to undercut costs but not quality. Now is the time for this Labour Government—my Government, my Minister, here in this House, for me and for my constituents in Strangford—to make it clear that they will deliver for my constituents. It is no secret that my politics lie to the left of centre; I am very pleased to see the Minister in her place and to see the things I hope to see over the next period of time.

It is important that we make clear our commitment to the Northern Ireland economy, which is anchored in manufacturing, and send a very clear message to prospective buyers that there is an unflinching commitment to aerospace and defence in Northern Ireland that will be outworked in development grants and tax aid to secure the future of this facility and, indeed, its expansion in the future.

In conclusion, I look to the Minister now to outline how her Government—as I have said, this is my Government as well—can and will send the right message today. I am very glad—this is a personal opinion, not necessarily a party one—to see a party, the Labour party, come to power, as it speaks for the workers, understands the rights of the workers, and understands the importance of an industry that is at the centre of the future economic plan of Northern Ireland. I now look to that Government to put action to all the words and secure the future of this sector, which is far from being on its last legs, and, indeed, is longing and equipped to soar even higher than it is now.