Powering Up Britain

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

Talking of making policy on the hoof, my announcement today that the Department would take over the entirety of the planning system would cause something of a Whitehall ruckus. At least twice this week I have met colleagues from the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to ensure a joined-up approach across Government. That Department is alive to these issues, as is the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my Department and the Ministry of Defence, which has equities here. Joining up and working across Government so that this is as seamless as possible—it is never entirely seamless—is at the heart of delivering the changes in the system that we need. My hon. Friend is right that planning is vital to that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. I have listened attentively to him, I have read the Government publication and, unfortunately, I did not see any reference to tidal energy. In Strangford lough we have a ready-made project. I was pleased to have the Minister over to visit the Queens University biology station. The scientists there were very happy to see him there and to have his input on the projects that we feel can make a difference. Will he outline whether the potential of tidal energy is getting the appropriate attention it deserves?

[Graham Stuart]

It was my great pleasure to be hosted by the hon. Gentleman at Strangford lough and to hear all about the potential strengths of the tides. I am delighted to see the growth of tidal energy. For offshore wind, it took quite a while to build up what was a nascent market. People said that we would never be able to lower costs offshore, yet we did. I think that tidal is on that pathway. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the ringfence, our continued support and our flexibility on budget as and when projects come through. We seek to drive the cost curves down so that, ultimately, we are technology neutral but support and nurse new technologies such as that, which have great potential.

Solar Rooftop Installations

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of solar rooftop installations.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Sharma. I am glad to have secured this debate about solar rooftop installations. Monday’s report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change left us in no doubt about the urgency of tackling the accelerating climate emergency, and one of the fastest, most effective ways of doing so here in the UK is to step up plans to decarbonise our housing stock. In this short debate, I want to focus on rooftop solar in particular.

There is no doubt that the number of solar rooftop installations has soared in the last decade or so, and I applaud that achievement. I am also happy to applaud this Government’s ambition to increase solar from its current capacity of around 15 GW all the way up to 50 GW by 2030 and then 70 GW by 2035. I am sure we are all united in recognising that achieving and, indeed, surpassing that target is vital.

Solar Energy UK estimates that, of the 15 GW of solar power capacity currently in place, around two thirds is on the ground, and the remainder is on residential and commercial roofs. This morning, I want to make the case for the installation of solar panels on all suitable new-build homes to be made mandatory and to explore how to overcome some of the obstacles to domestic solar.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for raising this issue. In my constituency, we are very keen to endorse this. Does she agree that solar roof panels can enhance the value of a property and that, for large families who use lots of hot water, the savings generated and the benefit to the environment can make the up-front cost worth while?

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Member makes my point beautifully. This is a win-win policy: it is good for householders and good for the environment, and it is good to get people’s bills down too. I thank him for that intervention, with which I entirely agree.

Some 80% of the buildings that we will have in 2050 have already been built, and we must work hard to retrofit them with renewables, but the remaining 20% have still to be built, and maximising the deployment of on-site solar generation in new-build homes could be a real game changer. If we are serious about continuing and accelerating what has been achieved to date and generating a successful rooftop revolution, we should be mandating that all suitable new homes come with solar panels as standard. The Government have an opportunity to do that with the new future homes standard.

I echo the recommendation made by the right hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) in his net zero review that things be put in train to ensure that there are no delays to delivery by 2025. However, I would go further and argue that we do not need another consultation on whether to introduce a requirement for new homes to be built with solar, because we know that the British public are already behind the idea. A YouGov poll just a few months ago found that 80% of people across the UK would support the Government in making regulations to ensure that solar panels are the default on appropriate new-build houses. Only 9% were against that idea.

Energy Support for Farms

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is indeed a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and an even greater pleasure to support my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart). She has outlined very clearly the problems that her constituents in Upper Bann are having, and I want to reflect on those problems as well.

It is also a pleasure to see the Minister in his place. He reminded me at 11 o’clock that this debate was on— I was already going to come, by the way. It is a real pleasure to be here. I think that he has already told me that whatever I ask for, he will respond in a positive fashion. I am not quite sure how that will work out, but perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann could give me a list of things to ask for. I say that in jest, by the way, but I know that the Minister will reply in a very positive fashion and I appreciate that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann is truly an advocate, in every sense of the word, for her constituents. She is also—I say this respectfully—a credit to her constituency and to us as her colleagues. We are very pleased to have her here alongside us today and we are equally pleased to support her.

I declare an interest as a landowner and a farmer, and a member of the Ulster Farmers’ Union. As my hon. Friend and I both hail from rural constituencies, we are often of one mind and one voice. Everyone else present is also of that one voice because the issue raised by my hon. Friend affects many constituencies across this whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It is hard to know what more can be added to the comprehensive case that my hon. Friend has made today, but I will certainly do my best to contribute to this debate in a positive fashion. Farmers and farm businesses are heading towards crisis, which will not be a matter of a few “Closed” signs and a closed door; instead, it is a matter of food security, which is of the utmost importance to this House.

I chair the all-party parliamentary group on eggs, pigs and poultry. There is no better APPG to chair, by the way; I love telling people about it. Everybody says, “Well, you’ll have a good breakfast every morning”, and I probably do. I always have two eggs every morning; I do not always have bacon or sausages, but I always have my eggs.

In my constituency of Strangford, the eggs, pigs and poultry sectors have intensive businesses with high energy usage. They have been encouraged to produce more food over the years, and to invest to do so. They have done that. The old saying, “You need to speculate to accumulate”, only really works if someone can speculate in a way whereby they know they will get a return. The problem is that with energy costs being so high, that speculation is now looking rather doubtful for many farmers, which is why we worry.

In my constituency of Strangford, we have the world-famous Comber spud. There is no spud like it; there are no potatoes like it in the whole world. By the way, Europe recognised that and I have to say that I had a small role to play in getting the Comber spud recognised by Europe. My colleague at that time was Simon Hamilton. He and I pursued that objective and the Comber potato is now highly recognised and valued, not only right across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but as far away as Europe.

The very famous Comber potato is produced by farmers in my area. They are immensely proud of that product, as they rightly should be. In my constituency of Strangford, we are blessed with precisely the right climate to be able to produce three crops of potatoes per year instead of the standard two. As I say, that is due to the climate, but it is also down to the soil. I would say, without fear of being contradicted, that there is no better soil in Northern Ireland to do that. And what a joy it is to represent that constituency, which has, as I say, the best soil there is.

The difficulty for the businesses in my constituency is that the cost of production has risen but the cost to the agrifood industry of converting potatoes into mash pots—which is where nearly all potatoes seem to go now—or whatever form they take, means that they cannot provide as much food as they potentially could. That is due to the rising energy costs.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. He touches on the most important part of the debate. The issue is not just that farmers face increased energy costs, but that that is part of the overall package. They have labour shortages and are under the cosh in just about every way imaginable. Consequently, if they are not able to meet the demand, other food sources will come through trade deals, and once they fill that gap in the market, we will never get them out.

[Jim Shannon]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I will refer to that shortly and give an example. There are many issues with workforce and the supply of products as well. We have had problems over the last year, before and after Christmas, and I wish to refer to them as well.

Over the years, Government have encouraged farms to diversify and modernise, providing grants for new equipment and technology. However, Government have not taken into account the fact that costs have quadrupled in the space of a year for many farmers, and grants and subsidies certainly do not meet those rising costs. When I speak to farmers in my constituency about the possibilities for renewable energy—there are quite a few who are trying to do it—I learn that, unfortunately, they have heard too many stories of fields being used for solar energy with only £100 being saved on the electricity bill. They would be better off renting out their field for a birthday party bouncy castle, which would bring in more revenue than £100. The numbers do not seem to add up for many and that is why we must now step in and sow solutions into the problem. Hopefully, the Minister will give us some ideas about what can be done to assist and help.

The lifeblood of this nation lies in self-sustainability. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) referred to that. The UK does not produce enough fruit and vegetables for its population to get the recommended five portions a day. Even without taking waste into account, the United Kingdom would need to produce or import 9% more fruit and veg for everyone to be able to eat the recommended amount. That is not possible while farmers do not have the ability to produce and process in profit.

The recent debacle with the fruit and vegetable shortage highlighted a pertinent point: the UK depends on Morocco and Spain for vegetables during the winter. It does not have the workforce to sustain and gather all the fruit and veg in the summer. There are opportunities to do that better and to work ahead. Because of heavy rains and floods, suppliers have been hit by the problem of ferry cancellations, which has, in turn, affected lorry transport. At one stage, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs had to reply in the House as to why food was so scarce. To be fair, it was not the Secretary of State’s fault, but ultimately the need to find a solution fell at her feet.

Supermarkets have also had shortages of broccoli and citrus fruits and we were left with rationing. I am not an avocado man, but my wife mentioned that they were in short supply as well. We never eat them, by the way, so I do not know why she told me that. I could not figure it out because it did not really make that much difference. However, farmers know they could fill the breach with other seasonable vegetables if they had the capacity to do so in a profit-making venture. If it comes to speculating, to accumulate we need to encourage the farmers to do just that.

Generations of farmers are prepared to carry on with the family farm and the back-breaking, morale-destroying and socially isolating nature of their work. We may not give farmers enough credit for all they do. They work away. I have always lived in the countryside, so I am aware of that from friends I went to school with and others I know quite well. Also, I live on a farm and my neighbours are all intensive farmers. But they cannot do this without support and the recent payment does not even make a dent in what is needed.

I back my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann in her calls for meaningful support. This is not only a matter of saving a job; this is about saving the nation’s ability to survive alone, and that is worth any investment in my eyes and hopefully in those of the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Andrew Bowie)]

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I thank all hon. Members for joining us in Westminster Hall for this debate. All of us—especially those of us who represent rural constituencies—are aware of the challenges that farmers are facing at the minute. I wish to express my gratitude to the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) for bringing forward this debate and for her dedicated campaign to back British farming.

The Government have implemented several comprehensive support schemes across the UK to assist farmers in coping with energy costs. In particular, I wish to address the support being provided in Northern Ireland, given the vital contribution of farming and agriculture to the economy there.

I understand how fundamental agriculture and the wider agrifood industry is to Northern Ireland, employing more than 50,000 people across 26,000 farms. Northern Ireland is renowned at home for the quality of its produce. Farms are at the heart of the agrifood industry, which contributes £4.5 billion in turnover every year, helping to deliver a stronger, more secure economy in Northern Ireland. Before I go any further, let me say that I would be delighted to take the hon. Lady up on her invitation to visit Upper Bann and see farms operating in her constituency.

Given the industry’s importance, it is right that the Government’s energy schemes have offered much-needed support to farmers over the winter in the face of high and rising energy costs. On 1 October, we introduced the energy bill relief scheme, which will continue to run until the end of this month. It provides a discount on the wholesale component of gas and electricity bills and has provided protection to farmers from excessively high energy costs over the winter period. Support offered by this package is worth £7.3 billion and it is available across the entire United Kingdom.

Although energy prices are coming down, and it is right that we balance continued support with energy costs with our duty to the taxpayer, we also recognise that prices remain far above historical levels. For that reason, although the energy bill relief scheme is coming to an end, we have pledged to provide further support to non-domestic customers, including our farming industry, from April onwards through the energy bills discount scheme. The EBDS will continue to provide support to eligible non-domestic customers with their energy bills from April this year until the end of March 2024.

It is true that the EBDS baseline support is significantly reduced compared with that of the current energy bill relief scheme. That is to reflect the welcome reduction in wholesale energy prices. The Government make no apology for ensuring that the taxpayer is protected; we need to focus our support where it is most needed. Under the support package, energy and trade-intensive industries will receive a higher level of support than the baseline element. That is essential if those industries are to maintain their competitive edge against their international counterparts as they are less able to pass on increased costs to their consumers.

Before I move on, I wish to address the specific points that were raised. It is a great pleasure to see the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) back in the Chamber for the second time today. I am delighted to address his points, although I take issue with his assertion that the Comber spud is the greatest potato in the world. I think a tattie howked from the Howe o’ the Mearns is the far superior potato when it comes to international comparisons. None the less, I do take on board all of what he said. I know that, as a diligent Member of Parliament for an incredibly rural constituency, like me, he speaks from his heart when he talks about representing his farming constituents. I associate myself entirely with his comments on the socially isolated nature of farming in the 21st century. We must do all that we can to support farmers in the incredibly important work that they do to support this country and, indeed, to export great British produce around the world.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), raised eminently sensible and pertinent points. I commit to looking at the definition of an energy-intensive industry, and specifically at his point about how the less carbon-intensive elements of farming may reduce the overall burden of carbon intensity.

Let me turn to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), the spokesperson for the Scottish National party. I will not take any lectures from the SNP on supporting Scottish farmers. It is not the Conservative Government, but the SNP Government who have been accused by the National Farmers Union Scotland of leaving farmers to operate in an information void, given the lack of progress on the Scottish post-Brexit farming Bill.

If the hon. Lady really is as passionate as she says she is about supporting domestic food production in Scotland, perhaps she will make the case within the SNP Government that they should get on board and extend the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill to Scotland, just as the NFUS has asked them to. That could be a great fillip and a great boost for Scottish farming, given that so much of the technology in that field is being developed in Scotland. Other than that, the hon. Lady did make some important points regarding supporting Scottish farmers, which, of course, I take on board.

I thank the hon. Member for Upper Bann for raising the issue of farms not being eligible for the additional targeted support of the energy and trade-intensive industries scheme. I am aware that the National Farmers Union and the Ulster Farmers Union have raised similar concerns. I want to stress that the energy and trade-intensive industries eligible sectors list is targeted and comprehensive. It was developed to support sectors in the top 20th percentile for energy intensity and the top 40th percentile for trade intensity in the UK, notwithstanding what I said in reply to the hon. Member for Southampton, Test about the carbon intensity of some elements of farming.

Sadly, the farming sector does not meet the ETII eligibility criteria at the minute and is therefore not eligible to receive the targeted support. Although I recognise that the hon. Member for Upper Bann would wish us to go further, I hope she will understand that we have sought to be fair in applying the criteria rigorously and objectively. We do not have plans to extend the scope of eligible sectors to include farms, as confirmed by the Chancellor at the Budget. However, the non-domestic alternative fuel payment offers one-time support of £150 to approximately 76,000 customers in Northern Ireland and 315,000 non-domestic customers without access to mains gas, including some farms, throughout Great Britain. High users of heating oil can apply for a top-up payment based on their usage over the past year.

It is essential that we look at energy bills support for farms and farmers in the round. Although farms will benefit from the EBDS at its base support level, rather than at the enhanced level for energy and trade-intensive industries, they will also benefit from funding available to domestic customers. That includes the energy price guarantee, the alternative fuel payment and the energy bills support scheme. The energy price guarantee reduces electricity and gas costs for domestic customers, aiming to lower annual bills, combat fuel poverty and maintain supplier market stability. The scheme covers approximately 29 million households.

In Northern Ireland, all households are receiving a combined payment of £400 from the energy bills support scheme and a £200 alternative fuel payment, regardless of whether they use alternative fuels or mains gas to heat their homes. That payment has been provided by electricity suppliers to all households with a domestic meter and a contract. That will include farmhouses with a domestic meter. Farms in Northern Ireland with a combined meter are covered by the alternative funding, to which I will turn shortly. Suppliers began making payments on 16 January and have confirmed that all first attempts to reach all customers have been made. Efforts are now ongoing to reach those who encountered challenges in the first pass, such as vouchers addressed to the wrong individual or failed bank transfers. Those who have not yet received their vouchers or a payment into their bank account should immediately contact their electricity supplier.

In Great Britain, the energy bills support scheme is being delivered as a discount on energy bills and provided by suppliers in monthly instalments from October 2022 to March 2023. As we are now approaching the end of the scheme’s final month, I urge all hon. Members to join the Government in highlighting to their constituents who use traditional prepayment meters the importance of acting now to redeem their energy bills support scheme vouchers.

[Jim Shannon]

Over the weekend, it was indicated in a newspaper that 20,000 households in Northern Ireland have not received their benefit. Is there any way that the Minister can ascertain who those 20,000 households are? Are some of them farmers? We suspect that they are. There was certainly an issue early on, with some farmhouses not receiving the benefit. Would the Minister be so generous as to find out the answer to that question?

[Andrew Bowie]

Across the entire United Kingdom, 1.9 million vouchers remain unused, which is why I ask all hon. Members to encourage people who have not received their vouchers, or who are not receiving the discount that they should be, to contact their electricity supplier, either directly or through their Member of Parliament. I will find out the fuller answer to the hon. Gentleman’s specific question on where those people are.

For those without a domestic energy supply, who were not eligible for automatic support, we have introduced the energy bills support scheme alternative funding in Great Britain and its Northern Ireland counterpart, the energy bills support scheme alternative funding for Northern Ireland. They offer one-off, non-repayable payments of £400 and £600 respectively. In Northern Ireland, applications are processed by our contracted delivery partner, with Government support. The £600 payment in Northern Ireland comprises £400 for energy bills, as in Great Britain, and £200 for alternative fuels, mirroring the payments under the main energy bills support scheme in Northern Ireland.

The Government are committed to providing assistance to farmers, households and businesses affected by high energy costs. The comprehensive schemes that I have outlined have been designed to offer support when it is most needed and alleviate the burden on our citizens and businesses during these challenging times.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Upper Bann on securing this debate on a subject of great importance to many farms, businesses and households. I commit to taking away all that she and others have raised about the high intensity of those businesses. I would be delighted not just to visit her constituency but to work further with her if my Department can provide further assistance to ensure that support reaches all those who need it as swiftly as possible.

Energy Charter Treaty

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this house has considered the Energy Charter Treaty.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am grateful to the Minister responding today. I know he is currently very busy, preparing the finishing touches to the Government’s response to the net zero review, which I submitted as the review’s independent chair. I hope he will excuse me taking this chance to place on his ministerial desk another precious opportunity for the UK to demonstrate clear and decisive climate leadership.

I know that the Minister is all too aware of the opportunity that net zero and green growth present to the UK: new industries, new jobs and a wall of inward investment ready to be deployed into the UK if we are prepared to take the net zero pathway, rather than taking the risk of not zero and turning our backs on the economic opportunity of this decade, if not the century, that net zero provides.

The new economic narrative for net zero that the “Mission Zero” report outlines clearly demonstrates that the choices that the Minister and the Government will make this month—March 2023—over our future net zero investments and policy certainty will potentially define his place in climate and clean-energy history, if he acts now. The rest of the world is watching and waiting to see whether the UK will continue to show international leadership on climate policy.

I suggest that there is another opportunity to deliver international leadership on climate, which is achievable today, that the Minister and the Government can seize while the rest of the world watches and waits to see whether the UK will demonstrate international leadership. The UK Government can make a clear and public commitment to withdraw from the energy charter treaty. That treaty is an investment agreement dating back to the mid-1990s, when the focus was on access to oil and gas reserves in former Soviet countries, and when work to tackle climate change, and recognition of the opportunities of clean and renewable energy, was negligible. Today, the energy charter treaty acts as a millstone around the necks of all signatories who wish to take their climate obligations seriously.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman’s interest in Northern Ireland is always significant. When I ask a question, I am always aware he probably knows the answer, for which I thank him. The aim of the energy charter treaty is to promote energy security through open and competitive markets. Although that is great for the English mainland, in Northern Ireland it is restricted to providers, and the competition is diminished. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that competitive markets must be available across all of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so that we can all get the benefit? I know he is saying we should withdraw, but Northern Ireland is already behind the eight ball, as it is.

[Chris Skidmore]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the details of the treaty, which I will come to, he will see that it does not create a level playing field for competition. It is weighted in favour of fossil fuel interests. He knows full well, given his interest in clean energy, how Northern Ireland could become a future green energy powerhouse. It wants to ensure that it can continue to build onshore wind turbines, with a huge opportunity for providing green hydrogen. The challenge the energy charter treaty provides to the UK, and Northern Ireland as a proud member of the UK, is that it takes those potential clean and renewable investments and weights them disproportionately against existing fossil fuel commitments that no other country wishes to make. That is a challenge that we need to deal with.

The charter is a relic from a bygone age, which should have long been recognised as serving an obsolete purpose that still places its dead hand across all states that signed it three decades ago, preventing climate investments and, worse, prioritising inexcusable investments in oil and gas, even when the countries themselves do not wish to make them. The energy charter treaty has effectively become a Magna Carta for fossil fuels, and it is being weaponised by fossil fuel companies to sue Governments for introducing climate policies.

Recently, Italy was sued for its ban on offshore oil drilling. The Netherlands has been sued for its coal phase-out law. Several companies have taken the Dutch Government to court for their decision to phase out fossil fuels by 2030, claiming damages of €3.5 billion. Slovenia has also been sued for its fracking ban

Independent Review of Net Zero

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

It needs to be sooner than that. Basically, we have an opportunity now for the Government to look at the recommendations in the report.

The report is divided into two sections. The first part is a new narrative on net zero. As the chair of the net zero review team, I put on record my thanks to my fantastic team of 22 dedicated civil servants who were drawn from across all Departments. I can see one in the Box now, who is working with the Minister. If it was not for the team, we would not have produced a report of such quality. We set out a new narrative on net zero. It is not some kind of eco-project or religion, and I do not stand here thinking that I want the imposition from the centre of top-down policies. I recognise that the challenge we face is to ensure that everyone in society is able to see the opportunities of the energy transition for the future. There will be challenges, and the report is open about those challenges and costs. At the same time, there is an international opportunity: we are now in a global net zero race. We can either continue to lead or we will follow, and the cost of following will always be greater than the opportunity of showing first mover advantage. There are no free rider opportunities here.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman said that he had been to all regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to ascertain opinions for the independent review. Can he tell us what the opinions were in Northern Ireland? Were they similar to everywhere else, so we can go forward collectively? If we can do that, we can achieve our goals. We cannot achieve them if we are divided.

[Chris Skidmore]

I had a fascinating opportunity to visit Belfast to hold two separate evidence roundtables. The first was with Belfast City Council, which gave me the public sector perspective on the challenges of decarbonisation and the public estate in Northern Ireland. The second roundtable was with private business and industry, with the Belfast chamber of trade and commerce. What I took from that opportunity to speak specifically about Northern Ireland’s concerns and opportunities was that there are challenges in Northern Ireland. In particular, it will probably achieve net zero later than 2050. On our overall UK net zero target, that is the case for both Northern Ireland and Wales. For Scotland, it will be a bit sooner, in 2045, as I am sure the Minister knows given that his constituency is at the forefront of bringing forward some of the green opportunities that will allow Scotland to go further and faster.