Transport (CSR)

Debate between Jim Fitzpatrick and Baroness Bray of Coln

Thursday 25th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

No, I do not accept that position either. The year before the crisis hit, we were borrowing 2.4% of GDP, compared with the 3.4% that we inherited from the previous Conservative Chancellor, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). Almost all our borrowing financed capital investment in schools, hospitals, road and rail.

The second myth about our record is that even if the public finances overall were under control, we were spending too much. We do not accept the allegation that what we were spending on schools and hospitals was excessive given the size of our economy. It was in line with other industrialised countries.

[Angie Bray]

rose—

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I give way to the hon. Lady—the debate has certainly livened up, Mr Gray.

[Angie Bray]

The facts show that from 2002 onwards, Labour Chancellors were £30 billion short of what they were spending. Whatever they were spending money on, they were spending too much. From 2002, we were running a £30 billion deficit year on year. That is how we got to the level of debt that we now have, regardless of the breakdown of the banks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

The Minister is teasing me. She knows full well that we just lost a general election on a policy of an additional runway at Heathrow and that my new leader—who, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) mentioned earlier, had a particular view when Secretary of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change—has announced that we are reviewing all our transport policy. I do not accept, by the way, that the methodology was flawed, although I accept that it has been upgraded and improved—“flawed” suggests that there was some skulduggery somewhere, which I do not buy in any way, shape or form.

The last question on aviation hubs is whether the Minister is worried that Brussels might be happy for Heathrow to lose its international hub role in favour of other parts of Europe.

[Angie Bray]

On the issue of six runways in Dubai, does the hon. Gentleman accept that Heathrow has no chance on earth of having six runways because of its geography? The problem with setting up Heathrow as a hub that can permanently compete with other cities that have their airports where they can continue to expand them—to four, five or six runways—is that we can never do that. We are utterly constrained by the geography. The third runway was about as much as we could ever have got anyway, and then only by jamming it in. To continue to compete in that way, therefore, is just throwing good money after bad.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I hear the hon. Lady’s comments and, as I said to the Minister, the electorate have expressed a view—certainly in west London—on additional capacity at Heathrow. I understand that the Department will be instigating a review of south-east capacity running to 2015, which seems a long time scale, and that the aviation policy will be written in a few months’ time. With the greatest of respect to the hon. Lady and to some of her colleagues who are new members of the Transport Committee, a hub airport is a critical piece of infrastructure for any country. Heathrow is running at 98.5% capacity—we will not have a hub if it is not Heathrow.

A strong point of view is that we should not have a hub and that we should deter and discourage people from travelling by air. The problem is that the impact on the UK economy, as a result of what aviation brings to UK plc, will be harmful. That is my personal point of view, but colleagues may want to consider the views of the CBI, the London and UK chambers of commerce, London First and the business community about the impact and role of Heathrow and whether capacity is needed.

[Angie Bray]

Nothing can change the geography. No one can change the geography of the area—one cannot get six runways in there.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I apologise. The hon. Lady mentioned six runways, and she is absolutely right—the third runway was about it. I only mentioned six runways to demonstrate that other countries are investing heavily in aviation infrastructure. A 25% increase is expected in China and south-east Asia over the next 10 years. People will fly—they will fly to the Americas from India, China and Australia, but, if they use Dubai as the stopping point for that part of the world, it will become increasingly difficult to get them to come to northern Europe. If we get them to come to northern Europe, they will not come to Heathrow if it is not functioning as effectively as we all want it to—again, that is an impact on UK plc. However, on the six runways, the hon. Lady is absolutely right, forgive me—I mentioned them only because I had been to see Dubai’s Aviation Minister, and had seen the runways and how amazing that was.

My last point on aviation is that I agree with the concern expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside, the Chairman of the Select Committee, about the future of TRANSEC and the impact of the CSR on security at airports and ports. More information is needed. I hope that the Minister will be able to comment, but obviously I understand the sensitivity around security issues. Perhaps she can comment, however, on the loss of expertise from TRANSEC as a result of impending retirements—early retirements due to potential redundancies—and, indeed, of redundancies. TRANSEC is an important organisation, and none of us want to see it damaged. It plays too important a role in our national security.

I will refer briefly to some comments of colleagues and reinforce points to which the Minister might wish to respond. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) raised the issue of high-speed rail. He got close to being drawn into aviation policy by his hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, but managed to stay away from it. I am sure his time on the Transport Committee will allow him the opportunity to examine closely the whole aviation issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) asked a number of questions of importance to her constituents and about the value-for-money issue. I look forward to the Minister’s response, especially as my hon. Friend was saying that the Highways Agency described the scheme she was concerned about as cheap and cheerful and not managed as we expect our modern motorways to function—without overhead signs controlling flows and changes to bridges. I understand that the scheme was referred back to the Highways Agency, but it has now been decided to plug ahead. As my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South strongly said, it is regarded as a waste of money. Indeed, she offered it to the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). I am not sure whether that generosity of spirit is normal between opposing parties, but I see that the point was well taken.

Among other matters, the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) raised questions on the role of ports and shipping. I agree with him that that sector’s profile does not match its economic significance. As a former Minister with responsibility for shipping, I look forward to hearing more from him in the years ahead.

The hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) cast an envious eye at Manchester and Sheffield; he asked for only two stations at Leeds. As it is the hon. Gentleman’s birthday, I would be interested to see how that request tests the Minister’s generosity.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham said that business accepted the need for restrictions on aviation. As I said earlier, I am not sure that I agree, and I shall not go there again.

The hon. Member for Thurrock spoke about the junction between the M25 and the A13. I am fairly familiar with it, as I lived in Barking for 20 years before moving to Poplar, Limehouse and Tower Hamlets. I know, as the hon. Lady does, that the new ports being built will add to the volume of traffic. Improvements to the junction were being considered by the previous Government in conjunction with the industry and the local authorities, because it is clearly a choke point. Something needs to be done.

As an aside, I believe that there are some 23 crossings on the Thames to the west of Tower bridge and only three to the east. With the regeneration of docklands, at least half of London’s population will be living east of Tower bridge, and there will be much more development on our side of the capital in the years ahead. I look forward to the Mayor of London revisiting the question of an additional crossing, which might marginally help the hon. Member for Thurrock. When the Mayor—Boris Johnson or his successor—comes forward with a proposal, as I am sure he will, I hope that the Department for Transport will support and encourage it. It will obviously be a financial risk for London, not the Department, but DFT support will be critical in ensuring that the project moves forward positively.

The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton raised a hugely important question on London’s transport, as did several colleagues, saying that if London does not function efficiently the whole of UK plc will suffer. Although some cast an envious eye on London and the support that the capital city gets, if London does not function the whole country suffers. I know that all parties in London are supportive of the hon. Lady’s comments.

The comprehensive spending review settlement is far from the huge triumph being spun by Ministers. It will see investment in our transport infrastructure being reduced far faster and more brutally than would have been the case under Labour. Not only will passengers be paying more for less, but they will feel the real burden of the cuts. The reality is that the Government are investing in rail schemes that they inherited from the previous Government, but with delays. Although passengers will see the benefit, the cost will fall on commuters through hikes in fares.

The Government have covered up a massive cut in funding for local government, disguising it as a commitment to localism, local decision-making and simplification, but the reality is that they are leaving the pain of making the inevitable cuts to local authorities and letting them take the blame. The comprehensive spending review settlement for transport is bad news for passengers, particularly commuters, bad news for safety on our roads, bad news for those who rely on buses to get to work or to find work and, most of all, bad news for business, competitiveness, jobs and growth.