CUSTOMS TARIFF (ESTABLISHMENT) (EU EXIT) REGULATIONS 2020 TAXATION CROSS-BORDER TRADE (SPECIAL PROCEDURES SUPPLEMENTARY AND GENERAL PROVISION ETC.) (EU EXIT) REGULATIONS 2020 CUSTOMS TARIFF (ESTABLISHMENT AND SUSPENSION OF IMPORT DUTY) (EU EXIT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2021

Debate between Jesse Norman and Pat McFadden

Monday 22nd February 2021 General Committees

[Jesse Norman]

I thank the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East for his questions and for his highlighting of certain specific items on which he wants some discussion and feedback.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about areas in which there have been dramatic changes and ones in which there have been no changes. As he has said, there are many areas in which there has been very little change indeed. To give an example, I have talked about the reduction in pistachios and cotton from 1.6% to 0%, which is irrelevant, as we do not produce pistachios in this country. There are also goods—spanners and wrenches, for example—for which the tariff has been reduced from 1.7% to 0%. I am sure that is important for anyone in the car repair trade, and it is part of the overall structure of the approach, which, as he has mentioned, is to liberalise in order to reduce inputs to production costs.

Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is right to flag the fact that in other areas the tariff arrangements are larger. It is worth mentioning that there will be a difference between tariff arrangements that govern goods that enter under these arrangements, and those that enter under a free trade agreement. For example, a finished car that arrives from South Korea, with which we have an FTA, can enjoy a 0% tariff, whereas a similar vehicle arriving from Thailand would have a 10% tariff.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the consumer impact. Again, the point of this approach is, in part, to keep production costs low, and the hope is that, by and large, the effect of that will be to lower prices for consumers. There are other areas in which it has been important for the global tariff to reflect the balance between producers and consumers. For example, in certain agricultural tariff areas, although the level overall has been simplified—the levels have been reduced in some cases, and the numbers simplified—there are key areas in which the tariffs remain, broadly speaking, what they were before.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about free trade agreements. Of course, it is true that in many cases the effect of these free trade agreements is to replicate trading arrangements that we enjoyed with the EU countries beforehand, but those agreements still need to be negotiated. The good news is that we start from a very high position of previous alignment with those countries, which has certainly facilitated the process.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about non-tariff barriers. I can only admire his ingenuity in crowbarring a discussion of non-tariff barriers into the debate about this statutory instrument, which is explicitly about a UK global tariff. It is as though we have separated out black and white and, although we are debating white, he wants to discuss black. Nevertheless, I am of course happy to discuss it. He mentioned shellfish. He will be aware that the Government have put in place a £23 million fund designed to support seafood businesses across the UK that may have experienced a verifiable loss during the movement of goods to the single market. The Government have also committed to a £100 million investment to rejuvenate the industry and coastal communities across the UK. The Government take those issues seriously.

In the case of musicians, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Government made a very comprehensive set of suggestions to the EU. Unfortunately, we have not been able to negotiate those as we would have liked, but that is not through any fault on this side of the equation. I will not speculate on why it is, but it is certainly nothing to do with tariffs and nothing to do with the Government’s position, which remains to support our musicians in their employment, where we can, as much as possible. That is evidenced by the £1.6 billion of cultural support funding that we have provided.

As for the legal basis, as the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, these instruments have been introduced on the basis that I described in my speech: the first SI under the made affirmative procedure, and the second and third as described in the explanatory memoranda. However, if he wants any further discussion on that, I am happy to write to him.

[Mr McFadden]

Can I just ask a question on that final point about the legal basis? The reason I ask is that we are now seven weeks on, and we are debating a set of SIs that are designed to ensure continuity after the end of the transition period. From a legislative point of view, how long can this go on for? In theory, could we come here after six or nine months and say that we need the statutory instrument to ensure continuity after the end of the transition period? In other words, how long after the fact can Parliament debate laws that have effectively come into force—in this case, seven weeks before we have debated them? Is this endlessly elastic, or is there a cut-off point at which the process—the mountain of secondary legislation needed to adapt to this—has to be done and dusted?

[Jesse Norman]

I think it is worth saying that much of the legislation, as the right hon. Member will know, has taken the form of negative statutory instruments, via the negative procedure, and they have not been prayed against, and one must therefore assume that they are acceptable to Members across the House. On the basis of the rules that he described, it is not infinitely extendable. Under sections 51 and 52 of the 2018 Act, the Treasury may make regulations that come into force before being debated in Parliament, but that is provided only if the debate occurs within 60 days after coming into effect. That has been the legal basis of the operation since 1 January until today.

Question put and agreed to.

TAXATION CROSS-BORDER TRADE (SPECIAL PROCEDURES SUPPLEMENTARY AND GENERAL PROVISION ETC.) (EU EXIT) REGULATIONS 2020

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the Taxation Cross-border Trade (Special Procedures Supplementary and General Provision etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1439).—(Jesse Norman.)

CUSTOMS TARIFF (ESTABLISHMENT AND SUSPENSION OF IMPORT DUTY) (EU EXIT) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2021

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the Customs Tariff (Establishment and Suspension of Import Duty) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 (S.I., 2021, No. 63).—(Jesse Norman.)

Draft Customs Safety and Security Procedures (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Debate between Jesse Norman and Pat McFadden

Thursday 10th December 2020 General Committees

[Jesse Norman]

I thank the Opposition spokesmen for their comments. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East says this is not technical. Of course, by “technical” I do not mean that the law may not have some impact. Of course, this is a power that we do not anticipate necessarily having to use; it is a tool that the Government think is advisable to be used in some very constrained and particular circumstances in the event of unanticipated disruption. We are going through a major change in our trading arrangements. It is sensible to make contingency arrangements.

The right hon. Gentleman may have forgotten that when it comes to safety and security declarations, data is not gathered by the UK in regard to trade with the EU, because we have been part of the EU internal customs and internal market. From that point of view, nothing changes. He and others have asked whether there will be some great compromise to security. We do not anticipate a great compromise to security.

[Mr McFadden]

The Minister has just said that nothing changes in terms of relations with the EU because we are part of the single market. From 1 January, we will not be part of the single market so quite a lot changes.

[Jesse Norman]

No, what I have said is that, since we do not gather data at the moment, what we are doing is continuing a system that already exists for a period of time—or we would be if we put in place these powers—and that does not represent a change from what we do at the moment as we do not gather the data at present. As I have already said, our trading arrangements of course do significantly change.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about the Home Office, and I can reassure him that of course these measures are developed in consultation and consideration and discussion with the Home Office. The SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, seemed to be having a few operational issues with his own handwriting—I am not quite sure if that is true—so he is well placed to speak on operational issues. Let me just say one thing: as far as I can tell, the numbers that he quoted were from external organisations, the NAO and so on. It is for them to comment on whether the numbers they come up with should be updated. From the Government’s standpoint, the numbers are as they have been published. With that in mind, I invite the Committee to support the motion.

[Mr McFadden]

The Minister has not answered a couple of questions that I asked. One was whether he can guarantee that there will not be an extension of these provisions beyond the first six months of next year, and the other was the question of weapons that he mentioned in his opening remarks. Can he explain exactly how these regulations will affect the export of weapons?

[Jesse Norman]

Sure. What I was saying, as the right hon. Gentleman will recall, as regards duration is that they last for six months. Of course, to seek a guarantee in such circumstances is a classic political request. No guarantees can be given, but we certainly do not anticipate extending the regulations. They are specifically designed to be a contingency tool to be used in specific circumstances, for specific purposes, and for a time-limited period.

In relation to weapons, all I said was that the existing arrangements had in part the goal of monitoring the transfer of weapons. As I have said, data gathering does not at present exist on the safety and security declarations, and that will not change as a matter of fact for a period of time, but of course Border Force and other agencies that are concerned with the flow of goods across the border continue to be engaged, and from that perspective we think that the border remains well defended and well supported. Of course, we have made significant infrastructure investments in order to make sure that that is the case.

Question put and agreed to.

11.50 am

Committee rose.