House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Jesse Norman Excerpts

Friday 18th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) on his luck in coming so high in the ballot and, I daresay, for his pluck in choosing a Bill that has the words “House of Lords” and “Reform” in its title. Lord Hennessy, the noted constitutional expert, said in evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee:

“Lords reform is the Bermuda Triangle of British politics, or one of them. Every generation or so people go into the Bermuda Triangle. Some never reappear; others appear singed, vowing…never to return.”

I hope, at least for my hon. Friend’s sake, that he will make it safely into port, singed or not. Whether he vows to return is quite another matter.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

In that spirit, will the Minister say to the House now that he will support the Government’s giving the Bill the proper time and attention to allow it to return from the Bermuda triangle entirely unsinged?

[Greg Clark]

I was about to say that the Bill contains modest proposals that the Government are prepared to support. Obviously, it needs to be scrutinised closely in Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) has ventured into the Bermuda triangle himself on occasion—whether he was singed or not is for him to say, but I am pleased to see him in his place today and look forward to his contribution.

The changes that are set out, as the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said, are relatively straightforward and represent common sense. There are those who argue that no change should be made until the wider case for reform, or improvement, as the right hon. Gentleman had it, or change, as other people might have it, can be agreed, but there is a clear consensus, after five attempts in the House of Lords, on the need to describe some arrangements that constitute incremental but nevertheless practical changes. It is only right that this House should listen to that call and take time to scrutinise it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman]

rose—

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and his Bill. I believe that he and it have the support of most, if not all, of the 91 sensible constitutionalists who voted against last year’s Bill to introduce an elected House of Lords. One predictable but slightly unhappy side effect of that Bill was that it delayed genuine reform, so it is enormously to my hon. Friend’s credit that he has been able to use this opportunity to restart, or indeed to start, such a process of reform. It is rare for a Bill of any constitutional significance to be brought forward from the Back Benches, but this one deserves to succeed, both on its merits and for the careful work he has put into discussing the measures with Front Benchers from all three major parties.

I would also like to pay particular tribute to the noble Lord Steel and the noble Baroness Hayman for their unflagging efforts to promote reform, to members of the campaign for an effective second Chamber and to the many others in both Houses who have supported that cause. I also pay tribute to the Deputy Prime Minister, who I understand has now dropped his opposition to these changes. It is hugely to the credit of the Government and my right hon. Friend the Minister that he and my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire will together constitute, with luck, a pair who can safely navigate their way through the Bermuda triangle of constitutional despond.

I do not wish to revisit at any length the events surrounding last year’s House of Lords Reform Bill, but whatever one’s views of the underlying merits of that issue or of an elected House of Lords, it is hard to deny that the Bill was deeply misconceived. It purported to create greater accountability by electing unaccountable senators. It purported to increase the power of the legislature against the Executive, but the fact is that the Blair Government were defeated four times in the elected Commons over 10 years and 460 times in the unelected Lords. It purported to advance democracy but would have meant fewer women, fewer people with disabilities and fewer people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds in front-line politics. The Joint Committee sat for longer than any Committee in recent memory but was unable to achieve consensus. Indeed, it had an almost unprecedented minority report, signed by six Privy Counsellors, and even then it was all but ignored. I think that the Bermuda triangle is an apt metaphor.

And for what? In the words of the noble Lord Pannick, one of the pre-eminent lawyers of his generation:

“The Bill does not adequately address the central issue of constitutional concern”.

I, along with many others, warned at the time that the Bill would undermine the primacy of the House of Commons and transform the Lords into a Chamber competing with the Commons and that the result would be legislative gridlock. I reminded the House that the United States of America offers a useful cautionary tale: a political system manifestly struggling; beset by gridlock; vulnerable to powerful special interests; its two Houses repeatedly finding it impossible to achieve consensus on important legislation. The events of the past few weeks, with the US Government shutdown and the USA itself close to default, make that point perfectly.

By contrast, our Parliament has always been at its best when it acts in a spirit not of 18th century innovation, but of reform. I cannot help but mention the great Member for Wendover, Bristol and Malton, Edmund Burke, who is not in his seat—not surprising, perhaps, as he died in 1797. In his writings, he set seven tests for reform, which might be of interest to the House. Reform should be early, anticipating the emergence of a problem before its full effects are felt; it should be proportionate to the evil to be addressed, to limit any collateral effects; it should build on existing arrangements and previous reforms, so that it can draw on any lessons learned from them; it should be measured, so that those making the change and those affected by it can adjust their behaviour accordingly; it should be consensual, so that the process of reform can avoid unnecessary conflict and outlast a particular Government’s own period in office; it should be cool in spirit, to maintain consensus throughout the process of change; and, finally, each step must be practical and achievable in itself. The Bill meets every one of those tests.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and for referring to Edmund Burke’s principles for reform. Under those principles, would it not be better, with regard to excluding peers who commit offences, to build on the Titles Deprivation Act 1917, which provides a precedent for removing peers and taking away their titles?

[Jesse Norman]

I thank my hon. Friend for that typically scholarly and thoughtful intervention. That piece of legislation worked in the opposite direction, beginning by taking away titles and then allowing removal or exclusion from the Lords to follow therefrom. Such an approach would raise a thicket of further constitutional issues and probably steer us directly into the centre of the Bermuda triangle, never to return. It is therefore with some hesitation that I would endorse his suggestion, but I absolutely invite him to expand on it in any remarks that he makes later.

This Bill meets every one of the seven tests of Burke that I set out. If it succeeds, it will be an excellent example of effective reform, and we, and indeed our country, will be the better for it.