Non-disclosure Agreements in the Workplace

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I want to lend my voice to what has already been said by Members, especially by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Dame Maria Miller). She and I came to the issue of NDAs together in one of the most egregious cases—the case of Zelda Perkins, who has already been mentioned and who suffered for years in silence. In that case and others that I have seen, certainly, around Oxford University colleges, I want to stress how the issue of this process being about power and control should not be undermined— this was also mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell). It is used to victimise people. It is literally the tool of an abuser.

When I met some of the whistleblowers in the Philip Green case, they told me a story about how he had said to them, “Keep on adding zeros. I will pay anything and you will go away.” That was the attitude. That is an abuser standing in front of somebody they know is weaker than they are. This is absolutely classic in all interpersonal violence relationships. They say, “I am more powerful than you. You will do as I say because I am the strong one.” Currently, the laws in our country allow that. The law in our country is written so that that it is completely acceptable for an angry, sexually abusive bully to stand in front of a member of his staff and say, “I am bigger, stronger and better than you.” Currently, we go, “He’s got a point. He is stronger. He has more zeros to add to the end of that cheque. He can shut you up.” That is the situation today. This will be happening to somebody today. Right now, as we speak, somebody who is trying to speak up about something bad happening is being told, “You’re weak. You’re pathetic.” That is a form of coercive control, and a form of violence. It is absolutely a form of victimisation, and I lend my support and voice to the amendments that the right hon. Member for Basingstoke has tabled to the Victims and Prisoners Bill.

The crux of the problem is that we, as lawmakers and policymakers, are saying, “That’s fine. That’s okay. Don’t worry because, you know, trade secrets.” That is the situation today, but let us make it so that tomorrow—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Kevin Hollinrake)]

The hon. Lady speaks passionately, and I absolutely accept many of the comments made in the debate, but the law specifically does not allow a non-disclosure agreement to prevent somebody from going to the police about a sexual abuser. That absolutely is not the law.

[Jess Phillips]

I did not say that it did.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

You absolutely said that the law allowed that.

[Jess Phillips]

I did not say that the law said that, although incidentally Zelda Perkins’s NDA did say that. I do not know what is written in all the NDAs in the country, although I have quite a lot in my inbox, so I have an idea of some of the things that people get asked for.

Of course what the Minister describes is illegal, but it is not illegal to say, “You can’t speak about this. You can’t tell the woman in the next cubicle along that the man you work for has been groping you, because you’ve been silenced.” That is what we are apparently saying is okay; we are fine with that.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

I apologise for not having been here at the start of the debate; I was chairing somewhere else. The hon. Lady used words that I had not yet heard today in this Chamber: “he”, “his”, “him”, and “the woman next to you.” That is really important. There are many women in this Chamber speaking about non-disclosure agreements. Apologies to my colleagues, who are a bunch of male Front Benchers, but does the hon. Lady agree that it is really important to reiterate how often NDAs are gendered? Apologies, Jim.

[Jess Phillips]

Hear, hear. The data laid out by the right hon. Member for Basingstoke made it very clear not just the gender imbalance in those affected by NDAs, but that black women are much more greatly affected.

[Dame Maria Miller]

I want to reflect on the hon. Lady’s response to the Minister. Time is very tight, but does the hon. Lady agree that part of the problem is the lack of transparency about whether clauses are legally enforceable? Employers can, maybe unintentionally, mislead their employees into thinking that they cannot speak out. Unfortunately, we are not all lawyers, and sometimes we err on the side of caution; we do not want to break the law.

[Jess Phillips]

The right hon. Lady is absolutely right. I have met women who said, “I can’t tell the police. I can’t speak to people.” I am, like, “You can.” I had to get the Speaker to write a legal letter saying that people could speak about this to their Member of Parliament.

My time is up, but I think I have made my point. I finish with this: we rely on media organisations to do the work of cleaning up businesses for us. We rely on victims to come forward, and media organisations to report that. From what I know about media organisations, I am not entirely sure that it should not be the Government who lead on this issue.