Welfare Reforms and Poverty

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friends the Members for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) and for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) on securing the debate. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the impact of the Government’s welfare reforms on poverty.

Evidence from my constituency certainly suggests that an increasing number of people are finding it very difficult, or impossible, to make ends meet. That applies particularly to those who are out of work, but, as other Members have said, it also applies to those who are in work. However, I think it important for us not to restrict our review to welfare reforms. More and more people in my constituency, and indeed throughout the country, are entering work and finding a way out of poverty as a result of the Government’s focus on job creation and apprenticeships.

We also need to consider the overall effect of the work that is being done to cut the deficit. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), the purpose of that work is to maintain confidence in the United Kingdom as a borrower, to keep interest rates down—let us not forget that we are currently spending nearly £50 billion a year in interest, and that the figure is rising—and to ensure that we as a country can maintain a proper welfare safety net for our people, not just in the short term but in the long term. A country that continues to run a 6.8% annual budget deficit will eventually be unable to afford not only a welfare safety net, but the other vital safety nets that we provide.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman makes many very measured speeches, and I know that this will be no exception. Does he agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) that the number of working people who live in poverty is now greater than the number in workless households?

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I do agree, and I shall say more about that in a moment. It is a matter that should concern all Members on both sides of the House, and I do not believe that the Government are immune to that concern.

A universal free health service and a universal free education service are also vital safety nets, but it is essential for the Government, on behalf of the nation as a whole, to keep a close eye on both open and hidden poverty. Poverty is often more hidden than open: many people do not complain and do not come to our surgeries, but get on with it, day in, day out. However, those people are really struggling, and it is incumbent on the Government to keep an eye on them. Governments exist for all their citizens, just as we as Members of Parliament represent all our constituents, whether they voted for us or not. Certainly, they do not exist only for the 20% or 25%—or fewer, if we count those below the voting age—who cast a vote for them. I know that Ministers in the Department have always taken that very seriously—especially the Secretary of State, not least when he established the Centre for Social Justice, of which I have been a supporter for some time.

It is also vital for Governments to consider both the short-term and the long-term effects of their policies. As I have said in the House before, I believe that in the short term we need to look again at the way in which the spare room rent subsidy is being implemented. Increasingly, arrears are accumulating. One social housing provider in my constituency already has arrears of 37%, and it is a good provider. Many others have far lower collection rates. That will eventually lead to evictions or write-offs, both of which are costly in human and financial terms. A suggestion I have made before is that the rate for the spare room rent should be substantially lowered from its current percentage levels to a fairly nominal amount initially if we are to maintain the principle, which I believe we should, and therefore make it affordable. It should be increased only as the supply of suitable accommodation approaches demand.

The right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton mentioned sanctions, which are applied to some of my constituents in a rather arbitrary manner. I ask the Minister to consider the way in which the Department sanctions jobseekers. I think it important for sanctions to exist, because we cannot be taken for a ride, but those who are genuinely seeking work should not be sanctioned as a result of mere technicalities, as has happened in my constituency.

The Chancellor recently talked of removing benefits from those aged under 25. I shall say more in a moment about the £25 billion hole that needs to be filled. Certainly, everything possible should be done to ensure that the under-25s have all the support they need in the form of education, training and work. It is clearly important for people to see benefits as a safety net rather than a way of life, but removal of, for instance, housing benefit from under-25s across the board would have a drastic impact on young people who need to live away from home and who have no support from their families. The YMCA in Stoke-on-Trent is an excellent organisation. Its managing director, who is a friend of mine, drew my attention to the consequences that such action would have on its excellent provision for young people, most of whom it is trying to get into work. This is a case of supporting people during transition. For younger people, we need to recast this support almost as income for productive work for all those who are able, so they get used to the idea of work, which almost all of them want to take up; but that support must remain.

We need to do more to help councils deliver more homes, perhaps by relaxing the existing borrowing rules for local councils, particularly on affordable and social homes. We also need to look at the possibility of localising employment schemes. The Work programme is doing some very important work around the country, but I would like it to become more local, so local councils can take more responsibility for running it in their own areas. The universal credit is incredibly important and I wholeheartedly support it. When it is introduced in each area, we should look at localising support and giving responsibility for managing finances as much as possible to local councils.

Finally, let me return to the question of the £25 billion hole. This is a fact and it is something a future Government, of whichever party, will have to face. There are so many ways we can reduce it. We can raise taxes, we can cut departmental spending and we can cut benefit and pension spending, or we can increase growth, which clearly is the preferable option we would all like to see. However much growth is increasing by at the moment, however, it is not going to fill that gap in the coming years. Can we raise more in taxes? I would rather see whether we can remove some of the concessions, and I have mentioned before the high rate of pension tax allowance, which is not a tax rise but is reducing the allowances people on higher incomes can claim when making pension payments. That costs us several billion pounds a year.

I do not believe there is much room to cut departmental spending in certain areas. I would certainly not want to see any more cuts in defence and security and schools and education, but we do need to have a look at one or two of the existing ring fences, although perhaps over the coming few years and not immediately. For instance, I would look at different ways of maintaining the free-at-the-point-of-delivery national health service—more through a progressive contributory national insurance system than out of tax. That would be one way of raising the income required to pay for our free-at-the-point-of-delivery health service and giving the Chancellor a little more wriggle-room on the £25 billion.

In conclusion, I think it is vital to look at poverty not just in terms of welfare reforms—important though those are and though their impact is—but in the round at all the things the Government are doing, whether in the field of job creation or protecting the vital national health service and the vital schools budget. Therefore, although I support this motion, if this inquiry is to go ahead it should look at all those things in the round, rather than just focusing on one or two of the points that have been raised.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

These debates are important in highlighting matters of detail. I am pleased to have signed the motion for this one, which calls for an inquiry into the effects of the benefit system. The biggest detail involved in all this is of course the deficit. When this Government took over, the country was borrowing £150 billion a year, which was added on to the debt each year. If we reduce that too quickly, however, it will cause economic dislocation, so it will have to be reduced relatively gradually. That is why it is surprising that the Opposition are criticising the Government for not reducing it to zero straight away. Obviously, we cannot do that sort of thing.

Another important detail is universal credit. I am very supportive of universal credit because it goes down the route of creating an environment in which people can benefit by being in work. There are people who abuse the benefit system, but the majority of people who receive benefits need support from the state in order to live. It is important, when we are dealing with the people who are abusing the system, that we do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I have been doing some work with the 6 Towns credit union. One issue with universal credit is that people will receive a sum of money each month then have to pay their costs out of it. The reason for doing that is to ensure that people who go back into work and are paid monthly do not suddenly find themselves unable to cope financially. There is no doubt that that prospect often makes people frightened of taking a job. The motivation of paying universal credit on a cash-flow basis is a good one, because it is designed to create an environment in which it is easier for people to get into work.

To achieve that, however, there must be ways for them to manage their cash flow, because not everybody is good at that. That is why I am pleased that the 6 Towns credit union has expanded its modus operandi and its common bond to include a lot of Birmingham, including my constituency. When universal credit comes in, my constituents will now have a service towards which the Government have put some money, because they have put money towards credit unions generally.

Specific issues need to be looked at. I always worry about the debate on food banks, for example. If we do not look at individual cases and work out why people are depending on food banks for three days, we cannot identify the problems in the system. The Trussell Trust was created in 2000, so in 1999 there was no Trussell Trust and no food banks. There were schemes then—people would go to supermarkets and get stuff that was out of date; there were all sorts of ways in which people found emergency food support. The fact that we have good organisations with good volunteers offering a good service does not mean that suddenly everybody who is using that service is doing so as a result of changes in Government policy. We have to review this in detail and look at the individual cases.

One of the general sorts of cases I am concerned about involves people transferring off employment and support allowance and then not being informed enough to claim jobseeker’s allowance. I believe that the Government are working on dealing with that. A number of constituents have come to me with those cases when they are destitute. My top priority is to ensure that people are not destitute. We see that happening from time to time and we need to identify those cases. Sometimes when I tell people that we can give them a voucher for the food bank they tell me, “I cannot afford to cook the food, so there is no sense in me having anything from the food bank.” It is important to prevent people from being destitute, and I have raised this issue directly with the Minister and in a ten-minute rule Bill.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman agrees with me about one problem with the transfer from ESA to JSA. A lady in my constituency says, “I am simply not fit for work, but by signing on for JSA I have to say that I am available and fit for work.” She does not want to tell a lie.

[John Hemming]

This is where the difficulties lie. I do not think that those are the details of the situation, but people misunderstand the situation and end up suffering as a result. I have never liked any of the cuts, but we have to make cuts because of the deficit. The one I would be most uncomfortable about is restraining the inflation increase to 1%, and if things get better I would at least like to examine the situation of the people right at the bottom of the pile—those on £71.70 a week or some £52.35 if they are under 25. They may only be losing out by £1.40 a week, but that is a lot for someone in that situation. I would like the Government to consider that issue.

I am also worried about the interrelationship between the welfare cap and victims of domestic violence, and whether there are situations that need more attention. I believe that people can get discretionary housing payment to leave a violent home, but it is important that we ensure that there is a route out of domestic violence for women. I am worried about that issue, just as I am about some wrongful sanctioning that I have seen. That does not help at all, because it undermines the whole process.

I would also like to see a substantial increase in the minimum wage, because as the economy is improving the Government should look at that, rather than maintain things as they are. I might be the first person to mention that. As colleagues are aware, I am not so uncomfortable about the spare room rent. On Saturday, a constituent came to see me because they were living in a one-bedroom council flat with a family of four. If that is happening, clearly there is space for people to downsize; I know that Bromford Housing Group has difficulty renting out single-bedroom properties, as it has said that to me. The details matter on this, and I am trying to get those details from my local authority in order to look at these things.

I am unhappy with my local authority cutting the amount of money it is putting into council tax benefit and therefore increasing the amount of council tax paid by people on JSA. We also have to examine the issue of habitual residency for in-work benefits, because a situation where people are encouraged to come here to be self-employed so that they can get a large amount of benefits even if they are not earning any money being self-employed—this is The Big Issue case—is not a good way of doing things. Debt issues are critical, and I am pleased that the Government are making some moves on payday loans, because when people get into a mess it is difficult to get out of it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Lefroy]

Does my hon. Friend recognise that that is also a problem for agency workers? As they do not have a long-term guaranteed income, they are unable to get mortgages.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention and I appreciated his speech, too. We ought to try to ensure that we have sources of lending in which people understand the industries in which people are working. That is where the building society movement came from—originally, it was about building homes. If we could get some mutuality back into the agency area, people would be able to decide who could be lent money and who should be deferred.

The last point in my mind concerns how we can go on preparing people for the jobs and occupations of the future. Many people’s futures will be as entrepreneurs, as they set up their own businesses; others will be in employment. I remember with pleasure Peter Thurnham, one of our former colleagues. When he was made redundant, he used his redundancy money to buy two machine tools, set up an engineering business and eventually employed 150 to 200 people. People sometimes say to me, “MPs shouldn’t have outside interests.” I would far prefer to have in Parliament people such as Peter Thurnham, who can tell us how business and employment work and how to get more people off welfare and into the kind of jobs that make them pretty independent for most of their life.

Many of us will require some support at some stage in our life; relatively few of us need support all the way through our lives. Before this Government came to office, we were getting to a stage at which too many families were in dependency from generation to generation; Keith Joseph told us quite a lot about that. Statistics show that only 10% of people who were in the bottom decile—the bottom 10%—10 years ago are in the bottom 10% this year. There is a great deal more movement among those who are poor or very poor than most people understand.