Council of Europe

Debate between Jeremy Corbyn and Hannah Bardell

Thursday 8th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)]

It is a real pleasure to take part in this debate. As I said in my intervention, I commend the work of the delegation. I would like to endorse everything the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) has said about the work of the support team—Nick Wright and his staff—who are fantastic in ensuring that things happen, and that the delegation gets there and takes part in the debates.

Being relatively newly appointed to the Council of Europe—I only came on to the delegation since the last general election—I have to say that most people have no idea what the Council of Europe does. Whenever I mention to people locally that I am going to an event at the Council of Europe, they say, “I thought we’d left all that behind”, and I have to explain that it is actually something different from the EU. It is often just simply not understood. The stuff that comes out of it is often not very much debated here either, so it is good that we have a main Chamber debate on this today. The examples the hon. Member gave about the Venice Commission, the Istanbul convention and other conventions are very important, and I think we need a system in which the Government respond, in the way they are required to respond very publicly to Select Committee reports, to give the same emphasis to issues that come from the Council of Europe, which I think would make it more important.

I want to make a few quick points, Madam Deputy Speaker, but could I first crave your indulgence for one moment? Tomorrow is 9 June, which means that it is 40 years since I was first elected to this House. I just want to put on record my thanks to the long-suffering and very wonderful people of Islington North for electing me all those years ago and for continuing to elect me to Parliament. My dedication is to them, and to serving them to the best of my ability in dealing with the housing, immigration, planning, environmental and other issues that I deal with. I just want to use this opportunity to put that on record and to thank all of them.

The declaration that came out of the Reykjavik summit is obviously extremely important, and it is very much dominated by the situation in Ukraine. Russia leaving the Council of Europe was a huge event, for obvious reasons. I think it was the first time any state has left the Council of Europe. I fully understand why—I fully understand what happened, and I absolutely and totally join everyone else in condemning the invasion of Ukraine by Russia—but we should also be aware that Russia leaving the Council has denied all Russians any access to the European convention on human rights and the relative protections they could try to obtain from it. I also fully acknowledge that there have been huge difficulties in Russians getting justice following decisions made at the European Court of Human Rights or through the convention, but we just have to be aware that it is a Europe-wide convention on human rights, and we want everybody to abide by it and to abide by the decisions of the Court.

All the Council of Europe sessions over the past two years have been very much dominated by Ukraine, and that is absolutely understandable. As I have said—and I repeat it—I totally condemn the Russian invasion and occupation of part of Ukraine. I would hope that at some point in the future the Council of Europe can become an agent that helps to bring that war to an end, because at some point there will have to be negotiations. At some point, there will have to be a peace process and at some point—I hope very soon—those who have been wrongly taken to Russia will be returned and there will be a process of dealing with the victims of war, wherever they are from and whatever they have suffered as a result of it. I believe that the Council of Europe has a role in that and a role in bringing people together, and I hope we can achieve that.

One issue the hon. Member for Henley brought up, and I would like to raise it as well, is the European convention on human rights and the role of the European Court of Human Rights. Page 4 of the declaration states:

“We reaffirm our deep and abiding commitment to the European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights…as the ultimate guarantors of human rights across our continent, alongside our domestic democratic and judicial systems.”

It was obviously extremely difficult back in the 1940s to draft the European convention on human rights and to establish the Court, because we were dealing with fundamentally different legal systems across all the member states, with very different perceptions of the separation of political and judicial powers. So it is a wonderful achievement that the European Court of Human Rights exists at all.

From its inception, the Court was part of our domestic law, and from the Human Rights Act 1998 its caselaw was absolutely part of our law. Therefore, when an injunction was granted to prevent an individual being removed to Rwanda by the UK Government, I was surprised that so many Members of this House and the Government reacted with horror and anger at the alleged interference of the European Court of Human Rights in domestic law. It is not interference; it is absolutely part of our domestic law. We need to think a bit more deeply about the passage through this House of the migration Bill, which itself does not meet the human rights declaration required of all legislation anyway. If we are in breach of a convention that this country was a party to in 1949 and has been a member of all that time, and we appoint judges to the European Court of Human Rights, we should have more respect for it and understand what it is saying and trying to do.

[Hannah Bardell]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful and important point. Does he agree that it is cynical and desperate of this Government to use their appalling Rwanda policy and a very reasonable judgment by the Court, to which we send judges and have signed up, in order to undermine the authority of that very Court?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I could not agree more. Britain was an early signatory and, indeed, provided many of the people who wrote the declaration and established the Court in the first place.

I also accept that there are problems in the administration of the Court and difficulties in getting cases to it. There are thousands of people across Europe who have different issues that they believe should be dealt with by the Court. I remember doing an advice bureau one Friday evening some years ago, and I counted the number of people in my constituency alone who felt that their injustice deserved the attention of the European Court of Human Rights. I thought, “Well, if we multiply that by 650 in Britain and then multiply that by 23, we get an awful lot of people.” Obviously, it is not that simple. People cannot just go there; they must first go through all their national legal processes. But there is still a substantial backlog and we have had useful meetings with the administration and the chief of the Court to try to understand the process they adopt, the analysis they make of all cases and how they are dealt with.

The Court’s judges are, after all, elected by the members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and we vote on them. The only criticism I would make is that the appointments committee spends a lot of time interviewing the applicants and forms a view on them and issues a declaration, while the rest of us get often substantial biographical details of the individual but it is very hard to understand from that what their legal approach and attitudes actually are, so it can be difficult to decide who is an appropriate candidate. We could be slightly more open about that and perhaps spend a bit more time on the appointments, because it is pretty fundamental appointing a judge for nine years to the European Court of Human Rights, which can have an effect on the lives and liberties of citizens all across Europe. Criticisms of the Court and of any legal decision are normal—we make them all the time—but we must accept that we and our legal system are very much part of that process.

I say that because there are voices, mainly in the Conservative party, that would like us to leave the European convention on human rights entirely and keep calling it interference with domestic law. I want to put it on the record that I strongly think we should remain in the European convention on human rights and understand and respect the law that goes with it.

The fact that the injunction granted was on an immigration issue also demonstrates the importance of immigration issues to the Council of Europe. I am a member of the migration Committee, and we have raised a lot of issues about pushbacks against refugees trying to enter particular countries—pushbacks by Greece, by Turkey and, indeed, by this country in the English channel. It is an uncomfortable truth that there are 70 million people around the world who are refugees seeking a place of safety. Some of them are coming into Europe and some of them are in Europe, and the media and cultural approach towards refugees is appalling in many cases—it is quite shocking.

I have been to Calais and talked to people there. They are desperate and poor and confused, and they are victims: victims of war, of human rights abuses and of environmental disaster. They are seeking a place of safety. One day they will be our neighbours, our doctors and our teachers, and we need a better and different approach to adopting and treating refugees in our society. If it is an uncomfortable wake-up call from the Council of Europe, then so be it; I think that is a good thing.

I am very happy to serve as part of the UK delegation on the Council of Europe, and all Parliaments have politically diverse delegations in order to bring up the many issues that need to be raised there. I am pleased that we are having a debate on this today, but one message that could come out of it is that we want the Government to be more responsive to issues that come of out of the Council of Europe, and that the House should automatically have a main Chamber debate at least once a year to go through the main issues arising from the Council of Europe, as we are doing today. If we want to live in a continent of peace, with protection of the environment and of human rights, this is an opportunity and a place where all those countries can come together at parliamentary level to try to achieve those kinds of changes.

Ethiopia, Sudan and Tigray: Humanitarian Situation

Debate between Jeremy Corbyn and Hannah Bardell

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Hannah Bardell (in the Chair)]

Before we begin, I remind Members that they are expected to wear face coverings. Given the recent outbreak in Parliament, I expect to see everybody wearing a face covering if they are not speaking, in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. I also remind Members that they are asked by the House to have a covid lateral flow test twice a week if coming on to the parliamentary estate. That can be done either at the testing centre in the House or at home. Please give each other and members of staff space when seated, and when entering and leaving the room.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the humanitarian situation in Ethiopia, Sudan and Tigray.

I am delighted to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Bardell. I am very pleased that Members have come to debate the humanitarian situation facing Sudan, Ethiopia and Tigray. The debate could not be better timed for the news that we have had today and in the last few days. I will open with a few reminders of the size of the humanitarian crisis facing people in that area.

In Sudan at this very moment there are 60,000 Tigrayan refugees, who have crossed the border from the fighting in Tigray, and there are still in Sudan, which is not a wealthy country, 1.1 million refugees from historical conflicts in Darfur and other places. As all Members will know, Sudan suffered a coup recently. Huge protests are going on in Khartoum and other cities, the elected Prime Minister is under house arrest and the military are patrolling the streets and trying to restore the previous regime’s methods. I wish the people of Sudan well in their demands for democracy, and I send a message of support to the demonstration that was held outside Downing Street last Saturday.

Ethiopia can now be described only as a country in a state of war. The Prime Minister has gone on national television to ask people to be mobilised to defend the capital, and the society as a whole, and is busy enlisting large numbers of often very young people—he is complaining that they are ill-trained—into the armed forces in order to continue the conflict. That was preceded by—indeed, it continues—many people from Tigray or other parts of Ethiopia who have made their homes in Addis Ababa being attacked, arrested and persecuted by the authorities. There is a whole popular mood against the people of Tigray, who are seen as separatists within the country of Ethiopia. I say that as somebody who is a friend and an admirer of the amazing history of Ethiopia—the one country in Africa that never became part of the European colonisation system.

In Tigray, 2.1 million people are displaced, 5 million are food-insecure, which is about 80% of the population, and at least 400,000 are literally starving, but because of the conflict, aid trucks, relief trucks and support simply cannot get through. Only 15 minutes ago, before I came to the debate, I was watching Michelle Bachelet of the United Nations. She is a wonderful woman and an old friend of mine; I have known her ever since the dark days of Pinochet’s dictatorship in Chile, before she became the President of Chile. A report that I have just received states:

“Michelle Bachelet, the UN high commissioner for human rights, said there were ‘reasonable grounds to believe’ that ‘all parties to the Tigray conflict have committed violations of international human rights, humanitarian and refugee law. Some of these may amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity.’”

She is a very intelligent and normally very cautious person. She does not throw those kinds of allegations out willy-nilly. They are very serious indeed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, and he is absolutely right. The reports of Eritrean forces being involved are very disturbing because that clearly internationalises the conflict. Verification is obviously difficult when the Ethiopian occupying forces and the conflict itself make it impossible for independent investigators to get there to understand exactly what is going on. One plea I am going to make at the end of my contribution is that international observers be allowed in, so that they can assess what is on.

If I may, I think we should put this in the context of the tragic history of Ethiopia. It has been through all kinds of things, right back to the Italian fascists’ invasion in the 1930s and their removal by British and other forces during the second world war. It has been a party to the cold war, and there has been a massive flow of armaments into Ethiopia from the Soviet Union, the United States, Europe and arms dealers all around the world. It is a country that has seen the most appalling conflict and the most appalling humanitarian disasters, such as the famine of the 1980s.

I pay tribute to the International Development Committee for its report on the humanitarian situation in Tigray. I am delighted that its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), is here, and I hope she is going to speak in this debate. If I may say so, I think the Select Committee puts the history of Ethiopia in summary form very well, and of course the enormous conflict that took place before Eritrea gained its independence and the further conflict that went on during the border dispute.

For goodness’ sake, there has been enough death, wars, conflict and loss of development opportunities without there now being a descent into a massive civil war across Ethiopia. It is always the most vulnerable and the young people who die as a result. The points in the Select Committee report about gender-based violence, on which my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) intervened earlier, are so apt and well put. I hope they become centre stage in any UN human rights investigation into the causes and continuation of this conflict.

The most immediate response to this conflict is the two events of 2019, when the Government of Ethiopia were pursuing a more democratic and participatory course and getting a lot of international support for it. There was then, effectively, the break-up of the Government by a change in the ruling party and by the Tigray People’s Liberation Front—removing itself from the Government. The Government in Addis then delayed the election that was to be held in Tigray. The TPLF in Tigray then decided to hold its own election, which it did.

It was claimed that this was illegal under the terms of the Ethiopian constitution and the whole thing descended very rapidly into armed conflict. We then get the deaths, rape and occupation, and huge refugee flows as a result. That is the immediate tragic history that Ethiopia and Tigray have descended into. I hope that in our debate today we can, at least, find out what the British Government think about this and what action they are prepared to take.

The issues we face are four-fold. First, we need to somehow or other get an immediate ceasefire in this conflict so that the food aid, medicine, water and all the other things can get in and so that the thousands who have gone mainly to the Sudan—and some who apparently have also gone to South Sudan, although I am not sure of the numbers—can return home.

Secondly, we need to recognise the consequences for those countries of the massive refugee flows. At the start of my contribution, I gave figures for the numbers of people who are refugees in Sudan—60,000 in Tigray and 1.1 million from Darfur. The media in this country complain about a few hundred refugees coming in across the channel. I am talking about a poor country hosting more than 1 million refugees without the infrastructure or wherewithal to cope with them. That, sadly, is the story of so many poor countries around the world.

Thirdly, who is going to be the interlocutor to bring about a ceasefire? The UN obviously must and should have a role in this. The African Union must and should have a role in this, but it appears that the degree of mistrust, particularly by Tigrayan forces towards the African Union, which is housed in Addis anyway, is one of the problems in bringing about a meaningful ceasefire. I do think there has to be involvement with the African Union, perhaps brought about by the UN itself. It is extremely important that we send that message today.

Fourthly, the arms sales to Ethiopia, Eritrea and Tigray are not huge on the global scale of things—I am not pretending there are massive arms sales—but nevertheless, in a conflict of this nature, rapid-fire machine guns and all those kind of armaments are the instruments of war. We are not necessarily talking about planes and drones and things, but more about those things. The UK sells quite little to Ethiopia. According to the figures I have from Campaign Against Arms Trade, UK arms exports approved to Ethiopia in the last three years amount to only £58,000, and most of that was related to armoured vehicles. Those questions were put. The three known military export applications are from Safariland Group, Harrington Generators and Boeing. I look forward to the Minister saying that there will be no further exports there. EU arms exports to Ethiopia over the last three years are more considerable, amounting to £36 million. I hope we put pressure on the European Union not to allow those arms sales to continue.

The urgent need, as I said, is for food aid to get through. Hundreds of thousands—nay, millions—are suffering from malnutrition or lack of food. There is a huge lack of medicines all across the country, as well as the war crimes investigations and all the rest going on. The situation is that well-armed and presumably well-fed and watered soldiers are able to kill each other in Tigray. Forces of the TPLF are active in Ethiopia and Ethiopian forces are active in the conflict against them. Arms are available for soldiers to kill civilians in a conflict that has to be resolved by a ceasefire and a coming together, so that people may decide their future in peace. All those soldiers are passing starving people—babies who are dying because of malnutrition; women who have suffered the most abominable abuse by those very same soldiers—and the war carries on with the arms that come from God-knows-where, from all around the world. It is the poorest people who suffer, in the worst possible situation.

I hope that we can send a message: we will give all the necessary aid and support that we can to get through this and, above all, we will take the political initiative and support Michelle Bachelet in her determination to bring about a ceasefire and some hope for the future. I am pleased that the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the all-party parliamentary human rights group and the all-party group on prevention of genocide and crimes against humanity are meeting tomorrow afternoon at 2 o’clock to go through all the issues. I urge Members to attend that meeting, which I understand will be online. It will be helpful for us to be better informed.

My purpose in calling the debate was not necessarily to blame the British Government for the whole situation there, but to thank the International Development Committee for what it has done and to ask our Government to give what aid is necessary and, above all—I repeat this—to use our political clout, whatever we have and wherever we have it, to get a ceasefire, to stop the killing, to stop the refugee flows and to let the people of Tigray, the rest of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Sudan decide their own future in peace. That is the best message that we can give.

[Hannah Bardell (in the Chair)]

Before I call Members, I have requested that the temperature be turned up, because I am conscious that it is very cold in here. I intend to call the Opposition spokespeople, including the shadow Minister, and the Minister from 3.28 pm, depending on the votes that we are expecting.