Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland: Legacy Cases

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Paul Girvan

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Westminster Hall

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Any reasonable person who read the police ombudsman’s report would conclude that the police did not know the precise location where the explosive device had been left by the Provisional IRA, did not know all the circumstances surrounding the incident—the kidnapping and so on—and had only broad general intelligence about an imminent attack on the security forces. However, the ombudsman concluded that the police failed to uphold Mr Dalton’s right to life. His death is tragic, and our hearts go out to his family; I understand their anger and their concern, but in the end it is the Provisional IRA who are to blame for that death, not the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I do not believe that the RUC had information available to it that could have prevented Mr Dalton’s death. There is no evidence in the police ombudsman’s report to support any other conclusion, yet he is able to say that, on the balance of probabilities, the police failed in their duty to uphold Mr Dalton’s right to life. And he says that against a background where he has the power to arrest, detain, interview and search.

[Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)]

This is an opportunity that is being used by those who want to rewrite history and try to imply that there is collusion in incidents that have happened. There might well be in a small number, but to try to paint it on every incident that ever happened in which someone was killed is to try to rewrite history. It is an attempt by republicanism to influence a Government-run body to bring forward those sorts of messages.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

My hon. Friend makes a broad point that is of concern to many of us regarding how the legacy process is addressing the totality of what happened in Northern Ireland during those tragic 30 years and more. The Osman test, which is often used in such cases, is very clear about what matters need to be considered when coming to conclusions about article 2—about the failure of the state to uphold the right to life. I do not believe that a conclusion reached on the balance of probabilities meets the threshold set out in the Osman test, and consequently I believe that the decision of the ombudsman is wrong.

Northern Ireland Budget (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Paul Girvan

2nd reading: House of Commons & 3rd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 20th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Paul Girvan (South Antrim) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly). The word “anticipation” is in the Bill’s title, and a lot of anticipation has been associated with this legislation. I do not want to regurgitate things that have been said already, but I was one of those Members of the previous Assembly who was told that they could talk not about what the money was going to be spent on but about the budget and what had happened historically. We had to glibly go ahead and go back through the detail of our wish lists for our constituencies.

In welcoming the Bill, I wish to go back over some of the ground that has already been covered. We had a difficulty last year: no Budget was set. One never came forward to the Northern Ireland Assembly. As a consequence, the permanent secretaries in Departments were left in a very difficult position: they were allowed to make a spend of up to 75% of their budget. Ultimately, we were told that they could spend up to 95% of their total budget, which would leave Northern Ireland with a black hole of somewhere in the region of £600 million accounted in one year if no Budget was set.

Thankfully, a Budget was put through this House in November 2017, which meant that the total amount allocated could be spent. I appreciate that that creates its own difficulties in that Departments cut their cloth accordingly, as they know where they can, and where they cannot, make their spend. Unfortunately, decision making is the main area with a deficit. The difficulty over the past year is that many projects were put on the backburner. Some civil servants used the excuse of no political direction as a reason to do nothing. In my area, we have roads that need repairing. Unfortunately, whenever it comes to monitoring rounds, we do not have the opportunity or the flexibility to move money where it is needed. That is a big problem. That has happened not just in Northern Ireland, but throughout the United Kingdom. A lack of direction has led to problems in our education sector and in our health sector—two areas of biggest spend.

In the past month, I had occasion to meet a delegation of principals from schools right across my constituency, representing every sector of education, Irish-medium included. I can only say that there is a total unfairness in the way that education is funded. Unfortunately, the Department says that it cannot make an adjustment because it needs ministerial direction. We have primary schools that receive £2,242 per pupil. Another sector of education receives five times that amount per pupil. Where is the equality when one pupil is valued at five times the level of another in the ordinary controlled sector of education? That really needs to be looked at. The message that came from that meeting of principals was that they do not necessarily want more money; they just want it spread more fairly and evenly throughout the education sector. That would mean that we would have the same outcomes in whatever sector of education we are dealing with. That was the message that came out loudly and clearly, and it is something that I want to see being driven forward.

I appreciate that all sorts of options have been proposed for how we deal with the way forward. All I can say is that we are rolling down a track, and there is a buffer. I appreciate that decisions have to be made in June, or whenever we set a Budget, but if we do not have an Assembly up and running—I cannot see us having one at that time—we will not have Ministers in position in Northern Ireland to give direction to the way the budget is spent. Let us be honest, not all of us have the same faith that the Northern Ireland Office will deliver the money fairly either. Therefore, we need direct input from Westminster to ensure that the spend is made correctly.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds) has said, great play was made about the confidence and supply money. One message that we have been very sure about putting forward is that this is not our money—this is money for the whole of Northern Ireland and it is to deliver for the whole of Northern Ireland in areas where it will have the most benefit. That is very important.

It was interesting to hear the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee make reference to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Department in Northern Ireland and some of the scrutiny rules that might be required. He suggested—and this is something—that we might well set up a scrutiny Committee, which would be made up of Members of the Legislative Assembly. I think that the Secretary of State’s predecessor had already suggested that this might be a way forward, giving the Assembly some form of business by involving it in the scrutiny role of both Departments and the PAC.

There are those in Northern Ireland who have said that they welcome the budget, although former Minister, Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, has been on local media stating how sad it is to see Tory austerity being driven forward in Northern Ireland. But there is a Barnett consequential carried forward to Northern Ireland through this budget, so we are getting our increase. The additional moneys that we have received for our confidence and supply agreement are over and above anything else, and we will ensure that they have direct benefits for Northern Ireland.

We need to be careful that we do not stand back and say that we do not want the Northern Ireland Assembly back. As a former Member of the Legislative Assembly, I see the benefits of devolution and believe that it is the right way forward for Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, we have a sword of Damocles held to the back of our necks, and it is being held by one party: Sinn Féin. We really have to stand up to them, drive forward and have, as the hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) said, an Assembly of the willing. Let us be honest—there are those who are willing to run Northern Ireland and work together. We are willing and want to go into an Assembly tomorrow. We hear red lines mentioned all the time now. Well, Sinn Féin has unfortunately set its red lines when it comes to the issues that it does not believe it could not drive through the Northern Ireland Assembly. Instead, it uses the talks process to drive forward its own agenda.

The Irish language is totally toxic to my community, and Sinn Féin knew that. Those issues were just put on the table to drive us further down the road. With the elections in the Irish Republic, Sinn Féin wanted to ensure that it did not let the Northern Ireland Assembly get up and running; it was keeping its eye on what was happening in the Republic of Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

On my hon. Friend’s point about the Irish language, the DUP has made it very clear that we do not object to people speaking the Irish language or having their children educated in the Irish language. Indeed, the Government in Northern Ireland have contributed millions of pounds towards promotion of and education in the Irish language. But the fact is that when a Sinn Féin spokesperson says that every word spoken in Irish is another bullet fired in the cause of Irish unity, they politicise a language, meaning that it becomes a very divisive issue in Northern Ireland.

[Paul Girvan]

I agree 100% with my right hon. Friend. I do not necessarily hold to speaking Irish, but I am not going to be against those who want to learn it and speak it. But there should be fairness and equality in the funding of these cultural issues, and political direction is needed in this area for the following year’s budget.

I appreciate that there were Departments that did not make their full spend. If other Departments were to come before the Assembly, they would have to qualify their accounts because of the overspend; there would probably be a vote on account associated with the overspend of some Departments. Some should probably have learnt a lesson and been a little bit more prudent in their accounting. I appreciate that there were negotiations about the spring statement last week, and Departments will have had some input. We want to see political direction to ensure that the spend is made to benefit the whole of Northern Ireland for the year 2018-19.

I, for one, am sad that we are here to discuss this. It will be worse when we are having to discuss the budget in June, because each and every one of us will have our own pet project that we will want to include in the debate, and we might well drag it out for longer than it should go on. However, I hope that the message from today’s debate is going out loud and clear: we are here because one party failed to deliver a budget in 2017-18. As a consequence, all the blame should be laid at the house of Sinn Féin over what it has caused Northern Ireland to suffer in the past year.