NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Bill

Debate between Jane Ellison and Michael Tomlinson

Friday 22nd January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)]

What a fascinating morning this has been. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton), who has dealt with some of the amendments. I hope to add some additional information and clarification, and to provide the useful history behind the need for and origins of the Bill. It is good that it has been debated with such thoroughness and that it has been given clear attention.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning the thoroughness of this debate. Does she agree that one of the reasons for the short Committee stage was that this House was debating the important matter of Syria? The Bill is important, but some might argue that the Syria debate was more important. Perhaps that explains why the Committee stage was so short.

[Jane Ellison]

That is probably a helpful thing to put on the record. All Members have to use their time wisely and appropriately, whatever the business of the House is at any one time. That seems to have been a sensible thing to do. Thankfully, we have been able to give this small but important Bill the time and attention it deserves this morning.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) for tabling amendment 4, which seeks to oblige the Secretary of State to carry out public consultation that he considers appropriate—we have dwelt on that somewhat—before making regulations that make provisions consequential on the removal of the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS bodies and to appoint special trustees. I do not believe that the amendment is necessary, for some of the reasons covered by others and on which I will try to elaborate.

Schedule 1 already makes a range of amendments to primary legislation that are consequential on the removal of the Secretary of State’s powers. They remove references to trustees in other legislation, because they would no longer make sense given that such trustees will no longer exist. The regulations that the Secretary of State does have the power to make under clause 1(2) are technical and remove any outdated references to such trustees, so that, in effect, tidies up all related provisions in primary or secondary legislation that might come to light in future.

It would, therefore, be unusual to consult the public. Members have given interesting examples of consultations in their own constituencies. It is fair to say that a degree of cynicism has been expressed, perhaps unduly, but I certainly agree with the principle that one should go into a consultation with an open mind. I assure the House that the Government seek to do that when they enter into consultations.

The situation with technical issues, however, is slightly different. The amendment seeks to consult the public on regulations that make technical, consequential changes, but proper scrutiny of such consequential changes is undertaken by Parliament. Indeed, Members have referred to such occasions. That is especially the case when consequential amendments are made by regulations to primary legislation, as the regulations are subject to debate and approval in both Houses. I hope that that gives some comfort to those who were concerned about the consultation issue.

Amendments 1 and 2 propose the retention in one form or another of the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees, and we have had a good debate about that. Amendment 1 would give the Secretary of State the power to make provision, by secondary legislation, to re-establish the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees to NHS charitable trusts. It would make such secondary legislation subject to the affirmative procedure and require that the draft secondary legislation be published three months before it is laid before Parliament.

Amendment 2 makes provision for the Secretary of State to appoint one or more trustees where he or she is satisfied that

“exceptional circumstances exist, or…all the trustee positions in relation to a particular charitable trust have been vacant for a period exceeding three months”.

As has been said, independence is the next stage in the evolution of NHS charities. Now that NHS charities have the choice to become independent or to remain as NHS charities with corporate trustees, the Secretary of State’s powers to appoint trustees have served their purpose and are no longer necessary.

Before the Government’s reform of the regulation and governance of NHS charities, nearly all the largest NHS charities had trustees appointed by the Secretary of State. As other hon. Members have said, particularly the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills, such charities were frustrated by the dual regulation of NHS and charity legislation, and one can quite understand why they felt limited in their ability to best support their beneficiaries. Many of the charities wanted the opportunity to become independent so that they could fully realise their potential. Other hon. Members have made good points about their need to express their independence and distance from the Government.

The Government’s reform of the regulation and governance of NHS charities has given those that wished to do so the opportunity to convert to independent status under the sole regulation of the Charity Commission. Six of the largest NHS charities with trustees appointed by the Secretary of State have already converted to independence, having decided that that is their best option for the future. The vast majority of the remaining 15 NHS charities with trustees appointed by the Secretary of State have indicated that they, too, plan to convert to independence in the near future. Three NHS charities with corporate trustee arrangements have also indicated that they wish to convert to independence.

At this point, it might be useful for the House and assist hon. Members who have tabled amendments that question some aspects of the Bill if I go a little into the history of this reform. It has always been a challenge to develop a system of regulation and governance that is workable for both the small number of very large NHS charities and charities with income of only a few thousand pounds a year. Within the sector, income is heavily skewed towards charities linked to large, high-profile hospital trusts, some of which have been mentioned during the debate. In 2012, the top five NHS charities accounted for more than a third of the total income, the top 15 for more than half of the total income and the top 30 for more than two thirds of the total income. However, the 50 smallest registered NHS charities had an average annual income of less than £10,000. The largest NHS charities require a different level of professional management.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison]

I am sure we all recognise the truth of your judgment, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the example was given earlier of an NHS charity that had championed defibrillators in the local community, and I think that that is how the topic was introduced. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) has made a good point, and I shall be happy to give him more information about the proportion of the fund that the British Heart Foundation has been able to spend on the training that he described.

I hope that what I have said about the amendments has been of assistance to the House.

[Michael Tomlinson]

In the light of the reassurances that have been given, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Third Reading