Found: This funding was secured through the budget deal between the Welsh Government and Jane Dodds, Leader

Found: The decision formed part of an agreement with Jane Dodds MS to secure the passage of Welsh Government

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and congratulations to all of those who campaigned for the hub, the new banking hub in Ystradgynlais. In fact it is, as you know, reserved. The UK Government has pledged to establish at least 350 banking hubs across the UK. These are very community-based solutions, unique community-based solutions, and the number of hubs continues to expand across Wales. I'm very concerned about the impact of bank closures from a social justice perspective, and also it's for people who are digitally excluded, people who can't bank online. I welcome the roll-out of alternative banking solutions and, of course, supporting our credit unions as well as third sector and voluntary organisations. I have been involved in a Banking in Welsh Communities event, and a further one is taking place early in the new year. I look forward to feeding back the outcomes of that event.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank&nbsp;you. We may come back to data if we've got time later on, but can I now call Jane Dodds to discuss some of the policy issues arising?&nbsp;</p>

<p>Thank you, Natasha. No, I do not believe that local referendums of that kind are appropriate. I do think that when we're talking about the budget deal that was done with Plaid Cymru and that was announced yesterday, it really is about finding common ground on shared priorities for Welsh public services. That was the message that the First Minister gave and the Cabinet Secretary for finance. We know what was at stake and that the door was open for discussions, and I think that finding those shared common grounds for shared priorities for Welsh public services is absolutely crucial, and that's what has been delivered through this agreement. And let's be clear that the winners here are the public services and citizens who rely on and use public services. This agreement provides stability and certainty for our public services and a way forward for a budget. So, I think that is something that needs to be recognised.All councils will receive increases above 4 per cent, and that's a substantial real-terms increase, which will help to protect public services across Wales. And I'd also like to say that there are things within the budget that were beneficial from last year's budget in our agreement with the Liberal Democrat leader, Jane Dodds—things that are ongoing commitments, such as £30 million to expand childcare for two-year-olds. So, that's really important as well.</p>
<p>I think, in terms of the funding allocation, you'll know that it is done on a funding formula. That is how the funding is allocated to local authorities. The biggest drivers of that are sparsity, deprivation and population, and there are a number of figures that go into that make-up. I think that local authorities work incredibly hard to deliver these public services that we see and that we rely on, and sometimes there are services that we don't see that are under huge pressure, such as social care and education, and I know, from this budget agreement, that that will help to provide local authorities that certainty. And I'm sure that you would want to also congratulate Newport City Council for the work that they do, and they're working so hard. We're seeing so many potholes being covered over and lots of roads being now fixed, because that's what people want to see. And I think the local authority and the leadership at Newport City Council are doing an incredible job.</p>

<p>I know that you've championed this and I know that Jane Dodds has also been championing this, and I've been very pleased to go and visit the site. Clearly, this is going to be an issue that comes in front of the full Cabinet and the Powys teaching health board on 16 December. As you say, if that is approved there, the outline business case is going to come to us in Welsh Government by the end of December. We will put the resources necessary in place to make sure that we can make an assessment as soon as possible, and assuming consent is secured, the planning application would follow <span style="text-decoration: underline;">during 2026-27, with the development of a full</span></p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd.&nbsp;Well, again, like the last petition, this is another petition, or we've had similar petitions to this one, and it's a topic that is mentioned regularly on the floor of the Senedd. I know that our colleague Jane Dodds had an event last week with regard to a clean water Bill. I've got much sympathy with this petition. For decades, we were told that our waterways were becoming cleaner and then, all of a sudden, we find out that that is not the case and that things are getting worse now.</p>
<p>Of course, realistically, with the timing of the Senedd and where we're at with the Senedd term, we will not be able to pass a Bill of this nature. Of course, we do have the environment Bill. I know that the petitioners have raised some issues with that and they've raised many questions. I think we should highlight that to the Cabinet Secretary who is leading on the environment Bill. I think we should also include this issue as a matter in our legacy report, to present it to the next Senedd, because this is not something that is going away. I would imagine that, in the next Senedd, this matter will be raised on a number of occasions then also. But, for now, I don't think there's anything more that this committee can do other than to thank the petitioner and to close the petition.</p>

<p>We will move to item 3 on the agenda, which is papers to note. There are some papers to note. Are you happy to note them all together? Yes. Thank you. I'll just refer to item 3.4, the correspondence from Jane Dodds about renewable energy figures and the environmental assessment processes. There are questions to Rebecca Evans there, but also a request for us as a committee to pursue some issues. So, I would suggest that we do so when we scrutinise Rebecca Evans when she is in front of us in the new year, if you're all content with that. Great. Thank you very much.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Okay. We'll come back to this next week when we're discussing the well-being of future generations Act. Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Jane Dodds, did you want to come in?</p>

<p>Okay. We need to move on. Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Just a couple of comments on the same letter. Obviously, we'd had the letter from Rob Jones about the fact that there, clearly, is progress being made in some areas. I have to say I didn't understand Timpson's letter, because it seemed to obfuscate by referring to hundreds and hundreds of different sources and so on, which seemed to actually work against the idea that there should be greater clarity as to the data&nbsp;that is available. I'm just wondering if some thought could be given to what the letter is actually telling us, because I have to say I didn't get any clarity about precisely what additional information is being made available, certainly some heads, and how that fitted in with the scale of what they're saying is already there and how that is going to be brought together. That's really quite important in terms of understanding. The last thing you want is bits of information scattered all over the place, whereas you want it in a constructive manner. So, I just wonder if some thought could be given, perhaps in response, taking up the point that Jane Dodds made in terms of timescales, but also the format, because that's what seems to be really important to understanding what is being made available.</p>

<p>Jane Dodds, is that on this subject or something else?</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, for bringing forward such an important report of your visit to Amgueddfa Cymru. And just to highlight again what is happening in our national museums and museums across Wales, I know, and I've been assured, that Amgueddfa Cymru is seeking to embed community participation and involvement, and you've given us some great examples already today. They see this as focusing on cultural participation as a right for everyone, involving communities in developing projects with communities. You've mentioned the Flying Start sessions, producing and developing workshops, but it's developing projects with communities. Of course, this is also focused in community-focused spaces, for example like the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea and the National Wool Museum, which received the Green Flag Community Award for their garden projects. I've visited the garden project in St Fagans as well and have seen the skills, the enjoyment and also the benefits of that gardening project and the great garden that results.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Of course, in terms of funding, the Welsh Government are committed to the publicly funded arts sector in Wales, and our funding of the culture and arts sector has seen revenue increases this year, with the Arts Council of Wales seeing a 9.2 per cent increase this year, compared to last year. And, of course, this is something where we also look to ways in which all of the arts facilities, through the widening engagement action plan with the Arts Council of Wales, can benefit from learning from those community organisations and engagements that they carry out. I think that Something New is something that is really a project that has particularly empowered individuals with learning disabilities to shape museum experiences.&nbsp;</p>

<p>This Bill intends to address, I think, the existential crisis that we're facing in democracies worldwide at the moment. There's a collapse in trust everywhere, and it's urgent, isn't it, the challenge that we're facing. So, I think the Government is to be congratulated and the Senedd should welcome, I think, any efforts to address this in our particular context.</p>
<p>Part of the Bill seeks to take lessons from elsewhere—parts of the Westminster system in terms of recall—and then adapt them to our context. The pioneering element in the Bill, and the one that I want to focus on in my remarks, is that to do with deliberate deception—Part 3 of the Bill. Really, here, we are at the leading edge. There are some jurisdictions—South Australia, the Australian Capital Territory—that have also made efforts in this regard, but we will be the first national Parliament to introduce the general prohibition on deliberate deception in the context of elections. We really welcome the element that creates a duty on Ministers to prohibit false or misleading statements for the purpose of electing a candidate.</p>
<p>In the last few weeks, we've seen deepfakes in the Irish presidential election, alleging that the successful candidate—it obviously didn't work in that context, thank goodness—had withdrawn from the election. In the Dutch election, there was a deepfake of Frans Timmermans being arrested, I think, and he did lose the election; to what extent that deepfake had an effect, who can tell at this stage? The leader of the Hungarian opposition, in the last few days, has made a criminal complaint against the chief of staff of the Hungarian Prime Minister, Viktor Orbán, for producing a deepfake where he says something about pensions policy that he didn't. So, it's happening, isn't it, and it's happening at an increasing pace, and it's happening here. I don't know if you saw, Counsel General, the remarks in the article by Yuliia Bond, who heroically—a member of the Ukrainian community in Caerphilly—talked about her experience in the election. What happened 'wasn’t democracy', she said, talking particularly about the lies about the nation of sanctuary policy:</p>
<p>'it was chaos built on lies. Leaflets full of hate, fear, and disinformation were pushed through people’s doors without a single barrier, without a single system to stop them.</p>
<p>'And when we tried to report it...we were passed around like a problem nobody wanted to own.'</p>
<p>What she says is, 'Look, we can't allow this to happen again.' So, one of my questions, really—. I know we've had many detailed and technical discussions on this in private, Counsel General, but members of the public will want to know why we can't put this prohibition in place for the Senedd election next year, when we're going to face a flotilla of the bot farms et cetera, and political actors with nefarious aims. Why can't we put this prohibition in place now? And I think as well, of course, there was a political agreement that two Members here were party to, and, indeed, that was actually confirmed in discussions with Jane Dodds as part of the budget agreement. That was about Members and candidates. So, we have at least a route towards creating an offence for candidates, but the Bill currently is completely silent on Members. So, will you work with us at the later stages of the Bill to ensure that there is also parity, that we also have an offence of deliberate deception for sitting Members as well?</p>
<p>In relation to candidates, it refers to 'before or during an election'. 'During' is fairly simple to understand, isn't it? It's after dissolution. 'Before', it would seem to me, means any time before that. Could you confirm that that is the case?</p>
<p>Section 22 of the Bill does allow the regulation to define what is a statement of fact. Is that broad enough to cover deepfakes, for example? And it also allows the regulation to define who it is the prohibition is targeted at, and is that going to be broad enough not just to target candidates, but also people acting as proxies on behalf of candidates—other politicians, for example, making comments for the purpose of electing a candidate, or indeed, bot farms et cetera? So, is it going to be futureproofed in terms of the technology, the medium, if you like, of the lie, but also who's saying it?</p>

<p>Well, diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, for bringing forward such an important report of your visit to Amgueddfa Cymru. And just to highlight again what is happening in our national museums and museums across Wales, I know, and I've been assured, that Amgueddfa Cymru is seeking to embed community participation and involvement, and you've given us some great examples already today. They see this as focusing on cultural participation as a right for everyone, involving communities in developing projects with communities. You've mentioned the Flying Start sessions, producing and developing workshops, but it's developing projects with communities. And of course this is also focused in community-focused spaces, for example like the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea and the National Wool Museum, which received the Green Flag Community Award for their garden projects. And I've visited the garden project in St Fagans as well and have seen the skills, the enjoyment and also the benefits of that gardening project and the great garden that results.&nbsp;</p>
<p>Of course, in terms of funding, the Welsh Government are committed to the publicly funded arts sector in Wales, and our funding of the culture and arts sector has seen revenue increases this year, with the Arts Council of Wales seeing a 9.2 per cent increase this year, compared to last year. And, of course, this is something where we also look to ways in which all of the arts facilities, through the widening engagement action plan with the Arts Council of Wales, can benefit from learning from those community organisations and engagements that they carry out. I think that Something New is something that is really a project that has particularly empowered individuals with learning disabilities to shape museum experiences.&nbsp;</p>

<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">and political actors with nefarious aims.</span> Why can't we put this prohibition in place now? And I think as well, of course, there was a political agreement that two Members here were party to, and indeed, that was actually confirmed in discussions with Jane Dodds as part of the budget agreement. That was about Members and candidates, so we have at least a route towards creating an offence for candidates, but the Bill currently is completely silent on Members. So, will you work with us at the later stages of the Bill to ensure that there is also parity, that we also have an offence of deliberate deception for sitting Members as well?</p>
<p>In relation to candidates, it refers to both 'before' or 'during' an election. 'During' is fairly simple to understand, isn't it? It's after dissolution. 'Before', it would seem to me, means any time before that. Could you confirm that it is the case?</p>
<p>Section 22 of the Bill does allow the regulation to define what is a statement of fact. Is that broad enough to cover deepfakes, for example? And it also allows the regulation to define who it is the prohibition is targeted at, and is that going to be broad enough not just to target candidates, but also people acting as proxies on behalf of candidates—other politicians, for example, making comments for the purpose of electing a candidate, or indeed, the bot farms et cetera. So, is it going to be future-proofed in terms of the technology, the median, if you like, of the lie, but also, who's saying it?</p>

<p>But it appears from the Deputy First Minister that some of the really key information hasn't been collected and doesn't appear in those impact assessments. So, I think that's a question for the Government to consider.</p>
<p>But I want to take you back to the rationale, just for a moment, because you said in answer to a question from Sam Kurtz that the budget process was a completely different process and not a part of your consideration, but the Welsh Government has made a number of statements, and I’ve got one in front of me here, 'Budget Agreement for the 2025-26 Final Budget', between the Welsh Government and Jane Dodds, and what that says very clearly—and it's written here—that</p>
<p>'A move to ban greyhound racing in Wales'</p>
<p>is a part of that agreement. The Welsh Government did not bring forward, as far as I’m aware, any proposals on this matter prior to that agreement, so it is difficult to disentangle the two, and for the Government to say, ‘We were going to work on this anyway; we just weren't doing any work on it’, and then all of a sudden, a budget agreement is reached, this information is published, and the Bill comes along.</p>

<p>I'm not clear whether the microphones are working.&nbsp;So, could we just have some explanation of that from the sound recordist? I can't see them coming on when Mark Isherwood is speaking, for example. [<em>Interruption</em>.] Mark's is on. Fine.&nbsp;Okay. It's all right. Jane Dodds, can I call you to put your questions?&nbsp;</p>

<p>I think there are two answers to that question. There are definitely elements in the draft budget that are there by choice rather than because they were there this year and were inevitably needing to be restated. I provided a list of some of those things in the Chamber. The budget agreement we had with Jane Dodds was a one-year agreement. You could argue that we've discharged that this year and that those things don't appear in next year's budget. But we have made a decision that the £30 million for social care, the £30 million for childcare and some of the other slightly more modest in expenditure terms items will appear in next year's budget.</p>
<p>So, there are some choices beyond the 2 per cent straightforward uplift, yes, and I tried to outline some of those. That includes, in much bigger figures, the over £200 million for the public sector for national insurance contributions and £137 million that has been found additionally in-year to meet pay cost inflation. I've decided that those things will be part of next year's budget, and those are choices.</p>
<p>On your point about legislation, the way that I approach this is that if my colleagues want to bring forward legislation and there will be costs attached to that, they have to manage that within the envelope that they have available to them. They will be all making choices within the additional money that's available to them as to where their priorities lie. I made an exception for the BSL Bill because that's not a Government Bill. That is a private Member's Bill, which the Senedd seems very likely to want to approve, and I thought there was a special case for making provision for that. But I don't make a special case for Government Bills, because those are decisions that my colleagues have made and they have to manage the consequences.</p>

<p>Yes, just to say, really, that I'm very pleased that extra money is there for the BSL Bill, because I'm on the committee that's scrutinising that. So, I think that's very good. The money that was agreed with Jane Dodds, the two lots of £30 million, is that built-in, then, into the budget for future years?</p>

<p>Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>I am concerned that a 2 per cent or 2.3 per cent uplift for public services would be a real-terms cut, and many of the things that will be on people's manifestos and wish lists won’t be delivered, because we need the foundations in place first. Childcare places need childcare spaces that are properly funded and developed with staff in place. I would like to see the roll-out of childcare, but we need to make sure the foundations are there as well, and there is that continuation of funding uplift for councils to carry on with that work.</p>
<p>During the 14 years of Tory austerity, councils have been cut to the bone. Half in the UK were at risk of bankruptcy. They had a reprieve with the change of UK Government that believed in funding public services again, and health, however many are still stretched. Councils need at least a 4 per cent to 5 per cent uplift to cover pay rises&nbsp;and inflationary pressures, as Mike Hedges said. School transport costs have actually increased by 40 per cent since the pandemic. We need more investment in additional learning needs, nurturing in schools to get them back into schools now. We need to recruit more care workers, as Jane Dodds said, and I see the north Wales health board needs at least a 4 per cent uplift, and it's really worried about its budget. But we are finally seeing waiting lists come down, thanks to an injection of cash from the new UK Labour Government via Welsh Government, and I want to see that continuing. We need to carry on with that inflationary uplift.</p>
<p>Councils are planning their budgets now. All will be back on the table now: subsidies for public transport, sustaining the rural transport network, leisure centres, ice rinks, swimming baths, libraries, school transport, country parks, public toilets. I'm mentioning all of these because people don't realise what councils fund. Mother and toddler groups—I was knocking on doors in Rhyl and they were really upset that a local mother and toddler group had closed—and green spaces for nature and well-being. All these are really important to people. School governors are now looking at their budgets. Teachers need notice. If we lose them, we won't get them back. These are jobs—our public services are one of our biggest employers in Wales. There will be mass redundancies if a budget is not passed, or if it's just a roll-over budget. People need hope, a decent life. They value the libraries, the leisure centres and swimming pools, the bus service—all the things that get cut while councils have to try and cover the inflationary pressures of the needs of education and social healthcare. This is what causes division in communities, by them not having the things that matter to them.</p>
<p>People need change: investment in communities, a decent life, decent wages, and many people in Wales are employed by councils and health. Cabinet Secretary, I will ask you the same question I asked the FM a couple of weeks ago: can you confirm you will use all resources available to cover inflationary pressures to protect local services such as education, housing, transport, childcare and our health service? If we can get that 4 per cent to 5 per cent uplift for councils rather than going via the budget, I'd like to see it, just a flat rate as well, so that those councils that have struggled year upon year with the budget formula—especially those councils in north Wales—can get a decent uplift and to carry on delivering services. Thank you.</p>

<p>Well, Carolyn, I think that we need to have a genuine conversation about the future of what local government looks like, the future of what education services look like within that local government footprint, and what the future of our health footprint looks like across Wales. We can't keep going with the same old narrative and keep funding it in the way that we are because it's not working now, so maybe we need to have a look at a new method. I know that the Cabinet Secretary himself has talked about an all-Wales public service in the past. Is that something that we have to look at again? I'm not against looking at reforming public services; others are a bit scared to do that, but I'm afraid that we have to grasp the nettle and get on with it.&nbsp;</p>
<p>One thing in the budget that I’m very keen on—. We talk a lot in this Chamber about skills and our skills development, growing our economy, making sure we’ve got the infrastructure there in the future, but I don’t think we have that economic vision in the budget. Wales has lost an estimated £50.3 million in economic loss across our country, and I think we should see more money going into that skills agenda. As I said, if we want to build homes for people, if we want to have future infrastructure, we need to have people on the ground to do that. I commend the Minister for skills for his work in this area, but I think he needs more fiscal support to enable that to happen, to get those apprentices of the future, our university graduates of the future, to really invest in Wales's future.</p>
<p>So, here is the crux of my challenge to the Cabinet Secretary, and probably to everybody in this Chamber: we need to shift the focus from that symbolism to a focus on the substance. We need to change the budget. We need to look at reforming public services, because reforming public services is the only way we are going to deliver better value for money and better public services. We could use that extra headroom that the Cabinet Secretary has allocated, that £380 million, to put into skills to do that high-impact delivery. As I said, use it to uplift apprenticeship funding, give our councils more certainty in funding in the short term, especially those more sparsely populated counties that I know Jane Dodds and I and others represent across this Chamber. Diolch, Llywydd.</p>

<p>Well, those figures you quoted are unreliable, according to the Office for National Statistics. And let me make clear that what's happened this week is that we have had an announcement of £547 million in local growth funds coming to Wales. That will help us to address some of the issues that you're talking about: growing the Welsh economy, tackling regional economic inequality, supporting people into work, helping people to gain skills and qualifications. We've had 22 per cent of the entire UK Government budget for this.&nbsp;And when it comes to childcare, we already spend £150 million on childcare. Thankfully, Jane Dodds helped us out with spending even more in the last budget, a budget that you didn't support. So, there would have been less childcare in Wales if it were up to you when it came to what we could offer this year. We are serious about this, but when we deliver and develop programmes of government, we make sure that they are deliverable, that the skills are in place, the people are in place in order to deliver those. And that's why we have a comprehensive approach to skills development when it comes to childcare.</p>

<p>Thank you very much, Jane Dodds, for your important questions.&nbsp;</p>

<p>I want to thank the Cabinet Secretary for finance for making this statement today about the outline draft budget. I think this is an incredibly important budget for Wales, built on the strong foundation of last year's budget, which included the £1.6 billion extra and, of course, an extra £5 billion over the spending review period. This is as a direct result of a Labour Government in the UK, and I think we should all recognise that.</p>
<p>I think this needs to be a budget that we all get behind as we do enter a period of momentous change in the Senedd's history. We must have public services and the people of Wales at the forefront of our minds when we're debating this budget today and in the actions that we take. I support the finance Secretary's strategy in dealing with this budget, and I believe it is in the interests of Wales that he is approaching it in this way.</p>
<p>I'd like to put on record my support for the commitment that has been made today to continue the £30 million for social care and the £30 million for childcare, agreed with Jane Dodds. I do believe that childcare is the route out of poverty, and I am pleased that the childcare provision for two-year-olds is already moving steadily towards including all two-year-olds, working very closely with the local authorities&nbsp;and ensuring the high standards that we have in Wales in childcare are continued, and I hope this will continue to develop.</p>
<p>I'm also very pleased to see the Welsh Government's commitment to providing adequate funding for the roll-out and provision of the BSL Bill. I'm pleased to be sitting on the Equality and Social Justice Committee's scrutiny of the Bill, and adequate resources have been repeatedly stressed by the people who have been giving evidence to us in the committee. 'Well done' to Mark Isherwood for introducing this Bill and to the Government for giving it support.</p>
<p>I'd like to talk briefly and ask a few questions about land transaction tax today. This is one of our most important devolved taxes and one that brings in essential funds for us to spend on our public services in Wales. I'm very pleased to see in his statement that the Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that land transaction tax rates and thresholds are remaining stable in Wales, as they've done for many years, bringing in £401 million in 2026-27. The threshold of land transaction tax being £225,000, with the average house price being £217,000, is very welcome, and, obviously, the majority of people in Wales are below the threshold. That is different in Cardiff, which has higher prices. But could the Cabinet Secretary confirm that six out of 10 properties in Wales remain below the threshold for land transaction tax? And has the Cabinet Secretary taken into account the four reductions in the Bank of England base rate this year in the decisions he’s made about land transaction tax? Diolch.</p>

<p>I have also decided to baseline into next year’s budget a number of the investments that were agreed with Jane Dodds, the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, as part of this year’s budget. Thus the figures contained in the draft budget continue into 2026-27 the £30 million for social care and the £30 million for childcare that were at the heart of that agreement. I make provision also for a second year of funding for the restored service on the Heart of Wales line, the completion of the pilot £1 bus travel for young people, and the revenue needed to support £120 million of local authority borrowing for improvements to local roads and pavements.</p>
<p>Llywydd, the Senedd will rightly expect that budgets make provision for decisions made in this Senedd. The British Sign Language Bill is an important Member-led Bill that has broad support. Although this is not a Government measure, I have ensured that provision is made in this draft budget to enable the aims of that Bill to be enacted, using the figures set out in Mr Isherwood’s own regulatory impact assessment.</p>
<p>At this stage, and as explained in my statement to the Senedd on 1 July, all departmental budgets are being uplifted to reflect the Office for Budget Responsibility’s March 2025 forecast for inflation in 2026-27. This includes the forecast for the gross domestic produce deflator, which is expected to be 1.7 per cent, consumer price index inflation at 1.9 per cent and wage growth at 2.2 per cent. Taken together, this means that non-pay budgets will increase by around 2 per cent, with a 2.2 per cent uplift for the public sector pay elements of departmental budgets. These OBR forecasts will be updated in November, and our final budget will consider the impact of any changes to them.</p>
<p>Llywydd, I want to emphasise to Members that this draft budget is the starting point of the budget process, not the end of it. While it deploys the vast majority of funding available to the Welsh Government—98.6 per cent of it—it ought to be our shared intention to use all the funds available to us in making the budget for 2026-27 for the benefit of Welsh citizens. The 1.4 per cent unallocated amounts to some £380 million, made up of a combination of revenue and capital. There is a more ambitious budget, therefore, that could be agreed in January, but that, of course, requires the participation of other political parties. The case for doing so seems to me to be clear, given the challenges facing our public services even with a real-terms uplift to budgets.</p>
<p>In that context, Llywydd, I am particularly mindful of the unique position faced by our local authorities given the legal parameters within which they must set their own budgets. It places an obligation on us all to help maximise councils’ spending power as we work towards that final budget. Already, as part of the draft budget, I have agreed that local authorities will retain all the growth expected next year in non-domestic rates. That by itself means an average growth of 2.5 per cent in local authority funding through the settlement. In addition, I have decided to continue into next year a funding floor, as agreed with the Liberal Democrat Member in the current year, with the aim of ensuring that no council receives less than a 2.3 per cent uplift at this stage of the budget process.</p>
<p>Llywydd, our budget process is different this year than in recent years. I'm pleased we can return to the usual arrangement of publishing a two-stage budget, as set out in our budget protocol. This provides the Senedd, and, in particular, the Finance Committee, with the maximum possible time to scrutinise the decisions set out in it.</p>
<p>This afternoon, the big building blocks of the budget have been set out. It now turns to each Cabinet Secretary to decide how best to deploy these resources, and those detailed spending decisions will be published on 3 November.</p>
<p>Llywydd, finally, I would like to emphasise again today what I said in my statement on 1 July.&nbsp;We must work together to secure a final budget that can be passed by this Senedd. It is our responsibility—our shared responsibility—as elected Members to secure the best possible budget for public services in Wales. To that end, I urge all Members to engage in discussions over the coming weeks so that this draft budget can lead to a full and final set of proposals that can be passed by the Senedd in January. To that end, I look forward to hearing from Members today. Diolch yn fawr.</p>

<p>I agree with that point that the Member has made, Llywydd. Financial flexibilities are an agenda item in the plenary of the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee on Friday, because all three devolved Governments have an interest in securing a more flexible approach to that, and that certainly would benefit a future Government in managing a £27 billion budget here in Wales.</p>
<p>Very briefly, through a small number of other points, can I assure Lesley Griffiths that we have made an assessment of the UK Government's proposals? It's not completely clear whether they will take any of them forward in the next financial year, but I am ready, should there be any measures taken, that we will act to secure Wales's position and to make sure we don't end up with large amounts of waste coming across our border because people think it's easier to use landfill in Wales compared to England.</p>
<p>Mike Hedges I think usefully set out what happens if a budget doesn't pass—you've heard a number of colleagues say that—but he also made some important points in relation to the use of local government reserves.</p>
<p>Thank you to Jane Dodds for her continuing constructive engagement in getting a budget to pass through the Senedd. There are many, many things that we would like to do, and money isn't always the answer. When it comes to childcare, for example, yes, you need money to invest, but you have to have a workforce, and it's difficult to recruit in this area, and you have to have spaces as well. I think Carolyn Thomas said that childcare places need childcare spaces, and we've abolished the payment of non-domestic rates for childcare spaces, but we still know that that is a challenge in the sector.</p>
<p>Mick Antoniw will have seen that we have made provision for the BSL Bill, the backbench legislation. I expect my colleagues, when they bring forward legislation, to meet the costs of that from their budgets. It's part of the normal work of Government to make sure that Government takes account of the measures it itself expects to take. But where that's not Government legislation then I think there's a responsibility to make sure that the will of the Senedd is supported by budgets.</p>
<p>I did hear Gareth Davies. He said the Government had run out of steam. I think we can safely say that he himself has not run out of clichés.&nbsp;[<em>Interruption</em>.] I fully accept that there will probably be more where they came from. [<em>Laughter</em>.] But I'll pass swiftly on.</p>
<p>Thank you to Julie Morgan for what she said. Look—</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and thank you for the very powerful statement that you've made today and, indeed, that you made in support of our nation of sanctuary. We have got to stand up and speak out and unite.&nbsp;I think the issues around online hate and misinformation, as I said, continue to increase. We haven’t actually mentioned today very much in terms of our statement the impact that this can have on children. And I do want to just say again that we’ve got the 'Keeping safe online' Hwb service, with extensive information and guidance for children and young people, helping them to think critically and use technology responsibly. I think we do look to our children and young people to take this forward. Rights, respect and equality is actually what our anti-bullying guidance for schools is, and that is what you were saying we should all be calling for today. At the start of this term, we wrote to all directors of education to highlight the rising tensions and hostility linked to conflicts, harmful online narratives, and that went to all our schools. It is very important that we address all of these issues.</p>
<p>In terms of the voluntary sector, those who have been targeted, we are working with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, county voluntary councils to help third sector organisations explore the actions they could take to minimise risks without compromising their charitable aims. But we stand by them, we stand with them, and I'll also say that I think we stand by and with all of those schools of sanctuary, universities of sanctuary, towns of sanctuary, counties of sanctuary across Wales, because I think that reflects what the majority of people in Wales believe. Our national survey, finally, asks people what they feel about a sense of belonging in their area, whether they feel people from different backgrounds get on well together in their local area, whether people treat each other with respect. The vast majority of people suggest that Wales is a largely cohesive and inclusive place to live, and it’s largely cohesive and inclusive because it is diverse and because we have this great commitment to being, in Wales, a cohesive nation.</p>

<p>I do believe these are very important matters, Cabinet Secretary. Members of our communities here in Wales have the right to live their lives with good community relations, not to experience hostility and hate. I very much agree with you about the nation of sanctuary and everyone in Wales and all the organisations in Wales that are part of making that a reality. I very much agree with Jane Dodds that, obviously, politicians and Senedd Members have a responsibility to be very careful about what they say and, indeed, what they post on social media, given the fevered atmosphere and sometimes poisonous atmosphere that surrounds political debate about these matters at the current time. That can, sadly, only get worse in the run-up to next May's election here in Wales. Sadly, Senedd Members are not always showing responsibility in these matters.</p>
<p>I do think it is a sad state of affairs, Cabinet Secretary, when a school makes a video to encourage refugees to come to Wales, demonstrating their own awareness of these matters, their own responsibility and their own empathy for vulnerable sections of our community, and because the Welsh Refugee Council shares that video, the Welsh Refugee Council is then attacked and hindered in its ability to perform its very important duties and deliver its services. That is a very sad state of affairs, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m sure you would agree with me on that. It just emphasises the need for Members of this Senedd to be very <span style="text-decoration: underline;">responsible and careful not to distort</span></p>

<p>Like you, I was an active campaigner in the 'Yes for Wales' campaign in 1997 and again in 2001. In creating this Parliament, we've tried to create something different, something based on a consensual model. Deliberately, the layout in the normal Chamber reflects that, the voting system reflects that, and the fact that we can't cut and run to call an easy election or fail to pass a budget reflects that we are locked in here together and have to face up to serious choices together. This budget is a serious moment for Wales and for this Senedd.</p>
<p>Now, the finance Minister, I think to his credit, has not brought forward a muscular budget to force down the Senedd to meet his priorities. He's come with a very humble budget, I think, to say, 'Here is the basic package of measures that safeguards pretty much what we have, with a minimal uplift in costs, and the rest is open to a conversation.' Because by ourselves we cannot pass a budget. We've never been able to pass a budget by ourselves, but this year is particularly stark. Even with the help of one other, we will not be able to get the necessary support. We are six months away from a Senedd election, and clearly the politics is in everyone's mind. I heard the offer of the Conservatives to engage constructively, and that is welcome, but I think the mask slipped pretty quickly, because when I asked Sam Rowlands, the finance spokesperson, of how much he thinks it would cost to reduce income tax, scrap stamp duty and scrap the business rate, he said that would be in their manifesto. Well, we need to make a decision before the manifestos. We need to make a decision in the coming months. Now, he seems to have secret costings, a secret plan, but if Darren Millar's offer of a conversation with the Government is anything more than a stunt, then we need to move beyond gimmicks.</p>
<p>Now, my very crude calculations of a reduced income tax would be something like £300 million, scrapping stamp duty something like £400 million, and scrapping business rates, depending on what you had in mind, closer to £1 billion. Now, clearly, that is way beyond the £380 million that is available in the Welsh budget. Now, we've heard from a range of speakers this afternoon a range of aspirations of things that we all would like it to pay for. We've heard Mark Isherwood welcome the fact that the draft budget is going to support the private Member's Bill he's bringing in. That would suggest to me that he ought to support it. We've heard Jane Dodds welcome the fact that the ongoing expenditure for the agreement she reached last year is in there, and that would, to me, suggest that it deserves support again. But we haven't had anybody seriously engage with the Government about what that support would involve, and that's what we have to do; that's what the people of Wales expect us to do. As the finance Secretary said, this is not about harming the Government; this is about harming public services.</p>
<p>And let's confront the reality of not being able to pass a budget. What does that mean for public services in Wales, as well as just being embarrassing for the Senedd, the failure of the Senedd to do its job—so, very real damage, I think, to the devolution project? If we simply cannot do the job we were elected to do, which is pass a budget, what does that say about us as a serious place, charged with making decisions for Wales? We know, under the provisions of the Government of Wales Act, that a budget would be passed forward on just 75 per cent of current spending plans. Now, that would be catastrophic for local government. As the finance Minister has intimated, they'd be forced to set a budget based on that 75 per cent, and that would immediately mean redundancy notices issued for thousands of workers across Wales in order to meet with the county treasurers' manual for what their statutory responsibilities are.</p>
<p>So, this isn't some esoteric exercise, this isn't theoretical—this has got very real, practical consequences of failing to live up to our collective responsibilities, and it is easy for Members, on both Government and opposition back benches, to make a series of lists of demands, but here we are. We have £380 million unallocated. Now, we can suggest freeing more up by cutting things, or we can suggest how we prioritise that £380 million. And so far, politicians in this place are unwilling to do that, and that's what we all have to do. So this is not, at this point, about the Government getting its budget passed; this is, at this point, about the Senedd being able to pass a budget and discharge the responsibility on all of us.</p>
<p>I welcome some of the measures the finance Minister has put in place, particularly changing the way non-domestic rates are set to help small retail shops and ask out-of-town sheds to pay more. There's a lot of good stuff that we would support in this budget, but, unless it is passed, none of it will apply, and we will all have to explain to our constituents, when we knock on their doors in the next six months, why we have failed to be grown-ups.</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Yes, the Brecon and Monmouthshire canal has been a big—. You've raised this question in the Chamber, and you've had a positive response, but now is the time to update on what's happening next. I understand that the task and finish group, which was established, is looking at short and longer term sustainable solutions. It was due to meet in September. The meeting had to be reconvened due to illness, and I understand that a provisional date of 20 November is now planned, and that group should make important steps in addressing the issues. But a positive update is that, because there’s been a bit of a gap in the process, a technical advisory group’s been set up to help evaluate specific options and provide expert guidance on the canal’s future to support the task and finish group work. So, I think that is very welcome, that that technical advisory group is in place before the task and finish group, because that group will include environmental bodies and industry stakeholders, so that we ensure that all the economic and ecological considerations are integrated. But it’s an urgent situation, isn’t it, facing the canal, and financial pressures, but there is a commitment of a £5 million upgrade of the Manorafon pumping station, and that is a significant timely intervention in terms of extending the current water supply arrangements between the Canal and River Trust and Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water.</p>
<p>On your second question, just, again, it's really important to have an independent advisory group on the future electricity grid for Wales. That has been convened. It’s taking forward work to build on understanding the possible approaches to delivering electricity transmission infrastructure, and there is a wide membership, a wide range of views, experiences, on the group, and I think, from our feedback, there are many diverse points being raised across the group, requiring updates and follow-through recommendations. Because updating the grid comes with costs and impacts, all authorities and businesses need to be involved in this. But thank you for raising it again, because we’re committed to setting clear expectations for the electricity transmission network based on that evidence base, so on the future needs of Wales’s economy, environment and communities.</p>

<p>Allow the Member to carry on, please. Jane Dodds—[<em>Interruption</em>.] No, don't comment under your breath, Darren Millar. Jane Dodds, carry on.</p>

<p>Motion NDM8981 Mick Antoniw, Janet Finch-Saunders, Jane Dodds, Carolyn Thomas</p>
<p>To propose that the Senedd:</p>
<p>1. Notes a proposal for a Bill on fly-tipping to make polluters pay for clear-up costs and to strengthen deterrents.</p>
<p>2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to strengthen legislation and reform the law on fly-tipping in respect of:</p>
<p>a) requiring offenders to meet the full costs of investigations and clear-ups undertaken by the local authority, Natural Resources Wales or private individuals;</p>
<p>b) requiring magistrates to order vehicle confiscations in all instances of proven fly-tipping;</p>
<p>c) providing appropriate training to magistrates to improve understanding of the full impact of fly-tipping on communities, the environment and public health; and</p>
<p>d) placing a statutory requirement on local authorities to investigate all instances of fly-tipping.</p>

<p>Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and, Cabinet Secretary,&nbsp;I'm very pleased to see the publication of this long-awaited and much-needed legislation.&nbsp;Greyhound racing is cruel, and it has no place in Wales where we're very proud of our high animal health and welfare standards. As is often the case when it comes to animal welfare, my inbox has been very, very full, with constituents in support of this ban, like many colleagues, I'm sure, across the Chamber.&nbsp;There was an opportunity for Wales to lead the way here, and as we've done so often with progressive legislation, it is vital that this Bill now proceeds at pace so that we're not lagging behind other countries in allowing this inhumane practice to continue in Wales.</p>
<p>The Welsh Government consulted widely, and the public response showed deep concern for how many greyhounds were injured and killed and also how they were treated in post-race life.&nbsp;I started this work when I was your predecessor, and I'm very proud of that.&nbsp;I don't see it as a political fix, and I, too, would like to pay tribute to the work of Jane Dodds, but I wish she wouldn't mention Arthur in the Chamber. You've done an amazing amount of work on this policy.</p>
<p>I did note that the implementation group that you've brought together, and you mentioned it's already met three times, and also around the criteria in answer I think it was to Jane about how they would decide whether a ban could be implemented in 2030 or it could be by as early as 2027—</p>

<p>Jane Dodds, I wondered if you could ask your questions around engagement with the deaf communities.</p>

<p>Oh, absolutely. Very good. Thank you. We will now move on to Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Jane Dodds, for both those important—very important—questions. As you're aware, of course, in relation to hotels, particularly, being used for sanctuary seekers, the UK Government is responsible for the provision of that accommodation. But what we do, in terms of Wales, is play our role in supporting the dispersal plan, and we're committed to supporting those in need. But also we have to recognise—and I will be obviously commenting on your points today—our two colleagues in the UK Government. But I would say today that I am very proud that the Welsh Government has a nation of sanctuary vision. I have to say I'm still recovering from the shock of hearing that the Welsh Conservatives no longer support Wales to be a nation of sanctuary. I cannot believe that every member of the Welsh Conservative group signs up to that. If you do, I'm so disappointed. Because this is a vision that we have to enable anyone who is placed in Wales to begin to integrate from day one.</p>
<p>I have to say also that I visited a hotel in my constituency on Friday that is providing a temporary place of sanctuary for people from Afghanistan, who have been in camps for the last four years because they supported our British armed forces in Afghanistan. And they have to suffer every week the far right on the doorstep shouting at them, shouting at people who have escaped from conflict as a result of the fact that they supported our British armed forces. These are the people that we support, and these are the people who want to make a contribution to Wales, to our economy, to our communities and society. So, I hope we will be able to—certainly, those of us on this side of the Chamber will be, I'm sure—make the same comments as you have today, in terms of our support for the nation of sanctuary vision.</p>
<p>I will look, obviously, in terms of those issues you raise where the UK Government has that responsibility in terms of accommodation for sanctuary seekers. I hope you will recognise and respect what I've said about those people we're supporting, who supported our British armed forces, who are now in our community in Wales, who I went to give a welcome to, alongside the local vicar from the village next door, who are helping these residents, these citizens of Afghanistan. The children are going to attend our local schools, and that will strengthen the schools, as well as their own opportunity to learn English.</p>
<p>Your second point, Jane, is really important, and I apologise you have only had a letter today to the cross-party group of Senedd Members who signed that letter to the First Minister. It actually came after, again, a very powerful point where we stood together at a cross-party event on the last day of term. I can again assure you that we have absolutely no engagement as a Welsh Government with firms that are providing arms to Israel. In fact, I was able, last week again, to put the record straight about a company that's doing work in terms of automotives, which was raised last week in the Senedd. I'll write to you again to reassure you that we do not have—. I was very clear in my statement.</p>
<p>Also, just to say, I've mentioned the nation of sanctuary, I've mentioned your letter—. Tomorrow I hope that colleagues across the Senedd will come and join Christian Aid, who are going to be outside the Senedd inviting people of all faiths and backgrounds to unite in a call to prayer and witness for peace. This follows on from 21 September, Sunday, the United Nations International Day of Peace—world peace day. They will be coming outside, and I hope we will form part of that witness.</p>

<p>Question 4, Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Thank you very much to Jane Dodds for this question. Of course, she has listed the serious problems that we have with care in our homes&nbsp;and the need for more beds. But what we all know is that the best thing for patients is to get this care as close to home as possible.</p>
<p>So, in north Wales, we have a very good example. Betsi Cadwaladr is criticised for a number of things, but they have developed an innovative programme, the Tuag Adref programme, which has proved very successful in ensuring the provision of care at home for people who need it. What lessons have you learned from the Tuag Adref programme, and can we see that programme being rolled out across Wales before too long?</p>

<p>Thank you very much. We're going to now move on to Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Okay, thank you for that clarity, and, clearly, we'll pick this up with the Government. We'll now move on to precisely engaging with the deaf community. Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Thank you. Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>So, are Members content to note the two items of correspondence we've had since last Monday? Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Yes. Thank you very much, Mick. It's an incredibly important moment, actually. I think we're all very proud to see the law introduced, and I also want to pay tribute to the families and the wider campaigners who've tirelessly pursued the Hillsborough law over many years of, frankly, vilification and victim blaming and all of the other things that we've seen so very unedifyingly in our newspapers—the very same newspapers currently screaming the place down about other appalling miscarriages of justice.</p>
<p>I also want to recognise, Mick, yourself and Jack Sargeant in particular who've both tirelessly campaigned, alongside other Members of this Senedd, for this law to be put in place. I know that you've both worked very, very hard indeed behind the scenes and in public and with the families to make sure that this happens.</p>
<p>I couldn't agree with you more about Orgreave. The point is that there is a whole series of these kinds of misuses of public state power, if you like, against people who have little power to fight back, and the ramifications of that for those families continue on into generations, actually. It scars entire families and communities into generations, and we've seen that many times.</p>
<p>We expect the impact to be far-reaching, quite rightly. We have to work through it to understand the provisions of the Bill in detail and to make sure that we have that analysis properly. But, just to say, candour is a fundamental thing that all Governments should adhere to. It's fundamental to good governance and to regulatory compliance. We have duties of candour in the NHS already in Wales, of course, and I don't think it's asking us to do anything that the best of us wouldn't already do fulsomely. It gives legal backing to who we should be, who we ought to be at our very best. The civil service code already calls for this. It enshrines it in law, as you know.</p>
<p>One of the things I was most pleased to see in this was the expansion of non-means-tested legal aid to bereaved families at inquests. That's really important, so that people do have the right support in what can be a pretty formidable experience, and a pretty emotionally damaging experience as well. So, I really was very, very pleased to see that. As you know, we're pursuing a Member accountability Bill—a working title—at the moment. I had&nbsp;the privilege of discussing with Adam Price and Jane Dodds earlier today whether we can import bits of this across, so that the language makes a coherent package and makes sense. So, we will certainly be looking to do that.</p>
<p>What this really is doing is saying to people, 'For goodness' sake, do the right thing. Do the thing you knew you should have done in the first place.' And it puts the power of the law behind it. So, we're delighted to see the Bill introduced, and we'll be following it closely.</p>
<p>One of the things I was most pleased to see in this was the expansion of non-means-tested legal aid to bereaved families at inquests. That's really important, so that people do have the right support in what can be a pretty formidable experience, and a pretty emotionally damaging experience as well. So, I really was very, very pleased to see that. As you know, we're pursuing a Member accountability Bill—a working title—at the moment. I had&nbsp;the privilege of discussing with Adam Price and Jane Dodds earlier today whether we can import bits of this across, so that the language makes a coherent package and makes sense. So, we will certainly be looking to do that.</p>
<p>What this really is doing is saying to people, 'For goodness' sake, do the right thing. Do the thing you knew you should have done in the first place.' And it puts the power of the law behind it. So, we're delighted to see the Bill introduced, and we'll be following it closely.</p>

<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">as you know.</span></p>
<p>One of the things I was most pleased to see on this is the expansion of non-means-tested legal aid to bereaved families at inquests. That's really important, actually, so that people do have the right support in what can be a pretty formidable experience, and a pretty emotionally damaging experience as well. So, I really was very, very pleased to see that. As you know, we're pursuing a Member accountability Bill—a working title—at the moment. I had&nbsp;the privilege of discussing with Adam Price and Jane Dodds earlier today whether we can import bits of this across so that the language makes a coherent package and makes sense. So, we will certainly be looking to do that.</p>
<p>What this really is doing is saying to people, 'For goodness sake, do the right thing. Do the thing you knew you should have done in the first place, actually'. And it puts the power of the law behind it. So, we're delighted to see the Bill introduced, and we'll be following it closely.</p>

<p>I've got a further question, but I'll leave it until after I've called Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Yes. And can I start by apologising to the Chair and to the Cabinet Secretary, and to the Chamber, for being late for the beginning of this debate. But I'd just like to pick up on those last comments by Jane Dodds, really, and remind us of the connection between what we're discussing today, which is the conduct Order which introduces, through secondary regulations, the existing electoral offences, et cetera, and the fact that we are going to be, very shortly, discussing a new piece of primary legislation, which will create a new electoral offence for deliberate deception. The purpose of doing that, of course, now, is to get it in place by the 2026 election.&nbsp;The Government has committed to doing that and translating that into conduct Orders for future elections. But, if the principle has been accepted, it's important that it's implemented now, because it's this next election when we are going to face, as Jane Dodds was intimating really, a tsunami of disinformation and deceit. And so, we need to use this measure, that we are going to legislate to create—. We need to then turn that into action at this coming Senedd election.</p>
<p>We had a very useful conversation with the Counsel General on this very issue, about how, practically, given, of course, we are getting closer to the Senedd election, we can translate the primary legislation into an amended conduct Order. So, it's important that we put that on the record now, so the Members and, indeed, the public, are aware of this. And where we left the very constructive conversation we had with the Counsel General is that, at the moment, the Government is not convinced that there is a route through, but if we are able to demonstrate a route, which is practical, then the Government is supportive. The Counsel General was supportive of that, so that was, I think, a very, very positive and constructive commitment. And from our perspective, you can't <span style="text-decoration: underline;">delay the defence of democracy.</span>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Well, thanks very much, and I think the early years integration transformation programme that RCT piloted is a great example of what needs to be done. It's a needs-based delivery model across the whole local authority. What it does is create a single front door to deliver the right support at the right time, to make sure, for example, that there's enhanced health visiting interventions, addressing one of the points that Jane Dodds made earlier, in terms of that link between health and low incomes in families with children.</p>
<p>The programme's now come to an end, and they're now embedding the learning and good practice as a core part of the business activity, and I know they're also investing an extra £2 million when it comes to Flying Start in childcare in Rhondda. So, that means around 350 more children will be able to get access. The good news is that that can be delivered, through the outreach element of the programme, to high-need children and families living outside of the Flying Start areas.</p>

<p>We certainly measure lots of things that tell us things are getting worse, though, so, clearly, it can't be too difficult for us to devise things to try and reverse those figures.</p>
<p>I'm going to move us on. So, Jane Dodds, would you like to come in?</p>

<p>Now, I'm calling Jane Dodds.</p>

<p>Okay, thank you. We need to move on. I just want to remind us that we were supposed to be finishing in 10 minutes. So, if everybody could be speedy in their questions and speedy in their answers—. We will extend it a bit because we want to cover three more areas. So, Jane Dodds.&nbsp;</p>

<p>Okay. We're going to pursue this further. Jane Dodds, you wanted to come in first.</p>

<p>Thank you. Can I call in Jane Dodds now, because we need to move on?</p>

<p>Well, can I thank the Member for his questions? This relates, in part, to questions raised already by Cefin Campbell and Jane Dodds, in that there are capacity issues in some parts of Wales, and we do need to meet that demand in order to ensure that the travelling public are not left stranded, but also to make sure that we're maximising the farebox, which, in turn, can be reinvested in areas of Wales that do not have the sort of frequent services that more urban areas often benefit from. So, we are trying our utmost, through the acquisition of new trains, to deal with capacity issues on the rail network, and in so doing, drive up the amount of revenue that we're raising through rail.</p>
<p>With regard to bus services, the bus Bill will address some of the concerns around capacity. It will also address concerns around networks not meeting the public's needs. Also, we have schemes such as the £1 fare cap that will come in soon, which I think will be of significant benefit for those who are often furthest from the workplace—literally the furthest from the workplace, and furthest in terms of being able to access decent job interviews, never mind the jobs themselves.</p>
<p>The mantra of the new chair of Transport for Wales is to offer safe, reliable and regular services, whether that be by bus or by rail. I know that he will be working with the board and with the executive to ensure that we provide that, not just on our rail services, but also on our bus services.</p>
<p>In terms of energy, the Member is absolutely right. Geopolitical instability has contributed to rising costs. That's having to be absorbed by operators at this moment in time. It's why the £600 million that the Welsh Government is investing over this Senedd term in bus services is so vitally important, because it provides a degree of protection against those fluctuations in energy prices and fuel prices.</p>
<p>The move towards electrification is an exciting move because it has the potential to decarbonise, quite considerably, the transport fleet. But it also means that we have to embrace the most advanced technology. And there are huge technological strides that are taking place at the moment. I think that it's important that we take stock of which are most futureproofed. But Transport for Wales is looking at being a purchaser of new electric buses, and it can then act as the organisation that will lease them to operators across Wales under the new legislation.</p>

<p>Can I thank Jane Dodds for her question, and, again, for the help that she gave in securing the new fifth service on the Heart of Wales line? That's planned to be delivered by Transport for Wales this year in the December timetable change. That service is planned to be better&nbsp;than the service that it replaces, the one that was removed due to low passenger usage.</p>
<p>Low passenger usage is a major issue to contend with. If we're going to put on more services across the network, we have to drive up the farebox. To drive up the farebox, we have to ensure that capacity is where demand is highest. That secures the maximum amount of resource to then cross-subsidise those services that have a higher cost-per-passenger price. So, getting more people onto rail services in other parts of Wales will be of benefit to the rail network in mid Wales as well.</p>
<p>In terms of the rolling stock, Transport for Wales is operating its active travel trains on the route, and it's my understanding that they are proving very popular with the travelling public. On the Cambrian line, Transport for Wales are now operating more services following the May timetable change: a new 16:30 service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth has now been initiated, along with more Sunday services.</p>
<p>I just want to say something about performance, because we've heard claims that performance is abysmal on the network. Actually, performance of services on both the Heart of Wales line and the Cambrian line has improved. There have been more services on time, with fewer cancellations compared with last year. I'm pleased to say that the very latest statistics for rail performance for the whole of the UK place Transport for Wales firmly in the top half of the league table.</p>
<p>It wasn't long ago that we did have problems, we were struggling, but they're now well into the top half of the of the table. I'm pleased to say that they are still the best operator in and out of Wales, with 85 per cent of their trains on time to within three minutes, compared with 60 per cent for Avanti West Coast, 67 per cent for CrossCountry and 81 per cent for Great Western.</p>
<p>In terms of on-the-day cancellations, again, I'm pleased to say that Transport for Wales is the best operator in and out of Wales again for the latest period, with just 3.8 per cent cancelled on the day, compared to 3.9 per cent for Great Western, 4.2 per cent for Avanti West Coast, and more than double Transport for Wales's rate for CrossCountry—they're on 8.7 per cent. So, I think it's worth just reflecting and recognising the fact that Transport for Wales is the best operator in and out of Wales.</p>

<p>Well, can I thank the Member for his question? A lot of work has taken place in the past few weeks since this issue was last discussed, but I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Liberal Democrat Member of the Senedd, Jane Dodds, for bringing forward this proposal. I think it will make an enormous difference to young people across Wales. I was at Ysgol Dinas Brân recently, in Llangollen, and I was chatting with sixth formers there about their main concerns and their challenges in life, and one of them said, 'You know, effectively, our life chances could be locked into this valley unless we can gain affordable access to public transport, and unless we can have frequent and reliable and safe services.' Well, as a result of the £1 fare cap, we are going to provide that affordable public transport. And as a result of the bus Bill, we're going to provide reliable, safe and frequent services. So, we are addressing one of the major inhibitors for young people when they strive to reach their potential.</p>
<p>Now, in terms of the discussions with the bus operators, they have been pretty intense. There are many, many operators. The challenge around young people aged under 16 has been confined though to a comparatively small number of operators that we've been in discussions with. I'm pleased to say that the First Minister herself will be making an announcement about the fare-cap scheme later this month, and I'm hoping that all Members will welcome it.</p>

<p>Thank you very much again, Jane Dodds, for adding your voice to the concerns that have been raised by Members today in the Senedd, adding your voice to all the concerns that have been raised about the plight of people in Gaza, and to recognise again that this is something where, as I said in my statement today, we call for urgent restoration of full, unimpeded humanitarian access across Gaza and the West Bank. Actually, I say in my statement that UNRWA should be supported and empowered to carry out its mandate. We heard about the restrictions, again, at our meeting last week. But also, you've added your voice, as others, in terms of the arms embargo call to the UK Government, and that's on the record, as already raised today. I think it is important that we say that we're urging all parties to re-engage in ceasefire negotiations, to get the hostages out, and to secure a permanent end to the conflict, leading to a two-state solution and a lasting peace, which would end the suffering of those most affected by this conflict.</p>

<p>I'm&nbsp;very grateful to Jane Dodds for that. As she will know, I have made a commitment previously to be publishing more information in relation to waiting times on a more granular basis, so I will take that particular point into consideration when we publish our transparency statement in the autumn. I should say that the figures published last year showed 10,100 orthodontic treatments, which is the second highest on record, after the previous year where nearly 10,700 treatments were started, so that is around a 10 per cent increase in activity compared to 10 years ago.</p>
<p>Obviously, we do not want anybody waiting too long for their treatment. One of the issues that we are identifying as we look at the granularity of some of those longer waits on the waiting lists is a pattern of early referral into orthodontic treatment before the intervention is best timed, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">if I can put it like that,&nbsp;</span></p>

<p>Thank you, Natasha. You tabled a written question about the summit, where I indicated I was very happy to brief you, Cefin Campbell and Jane Dodds, as well as opposition spokespeople, on the outputs of the summit. So far, nobody has taken me up on that. There were 30 Welsh Government officials at the summit, but the purpose of there being that number of Welsh Government officials was because I had been really clear that I didn't want to have an event where everybody sat there listening while there were policy speeches. I wanted this to be about discussing with people on the front line what we need to do to change things. So, the Welsh Government officials who were there were facilitating and noting the table discussion, and I'm really grateful to them for the work that they did on that. And I think it's quite a surprising thing that you've alighted on, really.</p>
<p>I don't agree with you that the press release was light. We set out five immediate actions that we would be taking. As I said to Cefin, I want to make sure that we capture absolutely everything that was said at the summit on the different tables to make sure that everybody's issues and ideas are fed in. Ahead of the summit, we had the round-table on violence in schools, and I was very grateful to the police and others for participating in that. That also provided us with actions. One of those will be to review the guidance in this area, although, as I've told you before, schools can already immediately exclude somebody who is found to have a weapon in school. We also discussed at the round-table the work that's being done in Cardiff, for instance, on their weapons framework. So, we're keen to learn from good practice in that space,&nbsp;and also to work&nbsp;with the work that's being done to promote a Wales without violence. So, there are many actions arising from the summit. There's only so much that you can put in a press release, and I'll repeat that offer again to brief you and Cefin, and, indeed, any Members who would like to have more detail on the work that we did on the summit. And if I can just take this opportunity, Llywydd, to thank everybody who attended. These are really difficult, knotty issues, but we had a really inspiring, uplifting day, where everybody rolled their sleeves up and cracked on with trying to find solutions to complex problems.</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and thank you again. It is important that we have these strong statements made by Senedd Members to stop arms to Israel, and that the Welsh Parliament expresses a view on that. Of course, that will be taken back in terms of not just the First Minister's response, as I was asked for earlier on, but also to look at this in terms of what is happening. I hope I can report back on that, again, in terms of the arrangements and the situation where we want to, as you say, Jane, be very clear about how we stop the war, how we stop the humanitarian disaster that is so cruelly affecting Palestinians in Gaza. Stopping arms is crucial to that, as well as, obviously—. Within international law, we have to recognise this call today.</p>
<p>On your second point, it is very welcome to see the fact that there's a really great partnership providing funding and support to Coleg Sir Gâr to set up their green skills academy. Of course, it was supported through the shared prosperity fund in 2023-25, generating awareness across the different age groups of the green skills route. During the project, young people were surveyed to understand their needs and awareness of green skills opportunities.&nbsp;I understand that Green 24 will specifically focus on the need for net-zero training and awareness in the public sector, and also that the green skills academy occupational qualifications and personal learning accounts are all managed within the funding budget by further education institutions and Medr.</p>

<p>Well, thank you so much, Jane Dodds, for again expressing that enthusiasm, that sense of pride that we have with our well-being of future generations legislation. It's a real sense of pride. I mean, there's so many times when people say, 'We're looking at what you are doing, Wales.' This is Wales that we're proud of, like the Wales we were proud of last night with our nation of sanctuary awards.</p>
<p>And yes, I remember Lesley Griffiths actually declaring Wales as the first nation to declare a climate emergency. We were always first to do this, weren't we? There are so many social policies that, actually, have been shared by not just Welsh Labour, but other political parties, yourselves and Plaid Cymru. We have been very clear about social justice, and I really thank you for your support for the basic income pilot as well, where we're now beginning to get the results of the evaluation.</p>
<p>So, we have a long way to go in terms of tackling child poverty, but we have our milestones and indicators and a monitoring framework, but also very clear what we think should be done in terms of reform of social security, end the two-child benefit limit, and also working towards ways in which we can look at how we can use our powers and levers as well in terms of tackling child poverty.</p>

<p>Ninety-three per cent of respondents have already stated their opposition to pylon construction in their area. Less than 1 per cent of businesses believe that pylons would create economic opportunities, while 81 per cent see no benefits whatsoever. The First Minister, in response to Jane Dodds, noted that they aim to get the balance right in the need to develop renewable energy resources and affordability.</p>
<p>However, this still neglects the vital component of engaging with the local communities. The previous First Minister, Mark Drakeford MS, even stated that:</p>
<p>'The policy is that electricity transmission cables should be placed underground where possible, not just in designated landscapes, but where possible.'</p>
<p>So, that's&nbsp;a clear commitment from this Welsh Government.</p>
<p>Now, I know I have been told, 'Oh, but Janet, it's down to cost.' Well, I'm afraid that if these big companies want—. We need the renewable energy, yes, but, if they want the vast profits that go with that, then I think they've got to respect the value of our countryside. So, what progress have you made, Cabinet Secretary, in delivering an up-to-date cost comparison of overhead and underground cables? Because I understand, although it's more expensive to go underground, that, after seven years, that cost is completely—it doesn't exist anymore, that it balances out. Diolch.</p>

<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">I can't underline enough</span> the importance of that new unit, the value of that evidence unit. But this report explores the potential to improve the disability confident employer scheme, which has come up this afternoon and, indeed, in your report. I think that it's important to say that this report, published today, has been welcomed by the taskforce co-producers, and that does include those members who've been mentioned today: Professor&nbsp;Debbie Foster,&nbsp;Damian Joseph Bridgeman, Dr Natasha Hirst,&nbsp;Willow Holloway and Joe Powell, all contributing generously of their time, expertise and lived experience to this research. I hope you will read the report and see how we are going to use this in terms of discussions with the UK Government about the disability confidence scheme.</p>
<p>It is important, just in terms of the time that we have left in terms of my response, that we fully support the committee's views that public sector bodies in Wales must lead by example in helping reducing the disability employment gap, and, as Jane Dodds has said, this is about leadership. Our employers have got to take the lead, with the public sector at the forefront. I also thank Hefin David and Sioned Williams for, again, reminding us of the positive lessons from the&nbsp;Engage to Change programme, and acknowledging that the Government, from the First Minister to Ministers who actually engaged and visited Engage to Change, that we have actually already started to mainstream supported employment provision, job coaching, into our existing Jobs Growth Wales programme, and provided greater flexibility within our Communities for Work Plus programme, ensuring this can help individuals overcome barriers to employment.&nbsp;</p>
<p>I also think it's very important that we look at the disabled people's employment champions, looking at organisations, such as ELITE,&nbsp;DFN Project SEARCH and further education institutions who offer supported internships for disabled people. Again, it's important that we recognise the specialised job coaching support for people with learning disabilities, as Hefin David has raised.</p>

<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">as well as the lack</span> of clear and robust targets and no new funding for implementing the actions. Similarly, Joe Powell, chief executive of All Wales People First,&nbsp;who chaired the disability rights taskforce's access to justice working group said, 'In order for this plan to succeed, we need the appropriate investment into the infrastructure and services to make this aspiration a reality. We need clear targets about how we're going to achieve this. Without&nbsp;these, it's very difficult to see how the plan will make a difference to&nbsp;disabled people in Wales.'</p>
<p>Jane Dodds referenced&nbsp;Damian Bridgeman, who chaired the&nbsp;disability rights taskforce's&nbsp;housing and community working group. He said the draft document was 'a smokescreen' rather than a plan.&nbsp;He pointed to the absence of new money and no mechanism to track delivery of the action plan further, adding,</p>
<p>'Disabled people have been reviewed to death. What we need is action – and there’s none of that here.'</p>
<p>He further criticised the lack of action on some of the most practical, necessary recommendations that came out of the co-production phase of the process, which he said</p>
<p>'never even made it into the final plan'</p>
<p>because the Welsh Government, 'doesn't know how to deliver them.'</p>
<p>The sector is also concerned that the UK Government's current Pathways to Work Green Paper proposals risk further disabling people in Wales by compounding poverty and exclusion, placing further pressures on devolved services, such as health and social care, and on the adequacy of funding through the Barnett formula.</p>
<p>In January, I presented the awards at the work and health programme celebration event in Wrexham.&nbsp;This employment support programme, launched by the previous UK Government and delivered initially by Remploy, then Maximus, with support from local charities, community organisations and public bodies, has been instrumental in helping disabled people, individuals with health conditions, and other groups to find and sustain employment.&nbsp;Although support will continue until July 2026 for all those who had already been referred to the programme, the programme was closed to new referrals on 30 September 2024.</p>
<p>Although the DWP has issued grant guidance for Wales for the UK Government's successor connect to work programme, this is yet to launch, potentially denying disabled people in Wales referral to an equivalent programme for a year or more.&nbsp;Third sector providers in Wales are also expressing evidenced concern that the new programme risks diluting and, therefore, reducing support for the many disabled and autistic people who want to work, but face the most complex barriers to employment, be they process driven, attitudinal, physical, technological, or just plain poor understanding and prejudice. As disabled people have told the cross-party groups on disability, on autism, and on deaf issues, their lack of employment is a consequence of these barriers and not of choice. Diolch.</p>

<p>Thank you very much indeed for all your contributions. I think we covered a lot of new ground, which is very good. Both Altaf Hussain and Jane Dodds highlighted the inadequate response by employers, which is very difficult to understand. It really isn't that difficult to find out the information. Clearly, Business Wales has a role here, and I would say the trade unions have a role with larger companies. They need to also be champions of disabled people.</p>
<p>I was also pleased to hear Altaf Hussain talking about people with invisible health issues, like endometriosis, and we did have evidence in that regard—people who feel reluctant to tell their employer about the particular challenges they face in case they are going to get discriminated against, and they are the first ones to go if people are going to be let go.</p>
<p>We had an excellent intervention on this point from Hefin David. It is the case that some employers do adapt their recruitment policies to align with the life skills, rather than the pieces of paper that have been required. I think Aneurin Bevan Health Board is one that has done that. We need to acknowledge that there is good practice going on. But I think one of the most damning points that was made is the point made by Dan Biddle: if you are not in employment by the age of 26, you are very unlikely you will ever become employed. That was reiterated by both Julie Morgan and by Altaf Hussain.</p>
<p>It was useful for Sioned to raise the issue around the UNDP. I think we should thank the Cabinet Secretary for inviting representatives to go and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">meet the working group</span></p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and thank you for that question. I think it was the First Minister who did report that we're meeting with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions later this week. Of course, we have a great deal of evidence, and you have given more evidence from your research, your party's research. We've talked about the Policy in Practice evidence. I've also referred to the disability equality forum, which I've met, and the evidence that has come forward from disabled people's organisations.</p>
<p>We will, when we meet with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, say that if the disability benefit reforms are to be introduced in their current design, because this is consultation—. We'll stress the importance of the UK Government taking steps to support people who will lose their current benefit income, to prevent them from falling into poverty. I think, when I met with the disability equality forum—. There were people with lived experience—disabled people—who were working who were receiving personal independence payments and who were concerned that they wouldn't be able to work if they didn't have the personal independence payment. I also heard, and I think it's also been clear, that there are issues around waiting lists for Access to Work, for example. So, in terms of Access to Work, where we know we are doing a great deal to support people who wish to and are able to work, there should routes and there should be the support to enable them to access that work.</p>
<p>So, again, I'm grateful for the questions this afternoon. They are all important feedback as we discuss this and, indeed, as I prepare our response to the consultation on the Green Paper and the impacts that we've already learned about, in terms of the changes, cuts, to personal independence payments. &nbsp;</p>

<p>Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Thank you for that first question, which has already come up this afternoon, in terms of the desperate closure, the ongoing closure of all our bank branches across Wales. In fact, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning and I spoke at a really important meeting recently with all banks, to talk about the issues of loss of banks and financial inclusion—a key priority for Welsh Government. Financial services are reserved, but we have regular meetings with LINK, Cash Access UK—the provision of ATMs is also diminishing—and also we had our credit unions represented, and building societies.</p>
<p>So, it is good to hear about the Ystradgynlais banking hub. Of course, that's a shared banking space, where different mainstream banks and their community bankers work on a rotating basis, with each present on one designated working day per week. There are just nine open, and a further four, I think, not just Ystradgynlais, but initial stages have set up in Flint, Holyhead and Monmouth. So, again, that is important that we've raised this today, that you've raised this today, and that we can again take this forward. And looking also at mobile banking vans, which NatWest Group and Lloyds Bank also offer, and Barclays as well. I was very proud to open the first mobile credit union van at Easter, for Neath Port Talbot—not just Neath Port Talbot, but a much wider area.&nbsp;We launched it at Easter.</p>
<p>On your second question, you did challenge me, I recall, Jane, to meet with Patriotic Millionaires when we were discussing the whole issue of child poverty and disability benefits changes. I met with them in April, with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, and indeed you also joined and helped convene that meeting. The Cabinet Secretary for finance, I know, would like to inform Members of the content and outcomes of that meeting with me, and we will do so, and we will engage, because it was very valuable to see the issues that they discussed.</p>
<p>They talked about the ways in which taxes could be raised for the highest earners for the benefit of all in society, including those high earners, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language is intending to raise this at a future meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee. It would be good to discuss these issues as a Senedd. I think one of the discussions we had was about an annual wealth tax, a ready-made piece of work that has already been done by PM UK. I think it was very valuable and we would like to share the learning in terms of what that could mean and understanding this in terms of the need to raise that all-important finance to support our most vulnerable in Wales.</p>

<p>Motion NDM8812 Luke Fletcher, Llyr Gruffydd, Samuel Kurtz, Jane Dodds, Rhys ab Owen, Peredur Owen Griffiths</p>
<p>Supported by Delyth Jewell, Hefin David, Jenny Rathbone, Joel James, Sioned Williams</p>
<p>To propose that the Senedd:</p>
<p>1. Notes:</p>
<p>a) that firefighting exposes individuals to carcinogenic effluents, including benzene and toluene, which significantly increases mortality rates among firefighters relative to the general population;</p>
<p>b) the work of the World Health Organisation’s International Agency for Research on Cancer and their classification of cancer among firefighters as a Group 1 occupational hazard;</p>
<p>c) that countries such as the United States, Canada, and Australia have officially recognised the link between exposure to toxic effluents and increased incidences of cancers; and</p>
<p>d) the Fire Brigades Union’s ‘DECON’ campaign and its vital efforts to help firefighters reduce harmful exposure to contaminants.</p>
<p>2. Recognises the findings of scientific research led by Professor Anna Stec at the Centre for Fire and Hazards Sciences, University of Central Lancashire, commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union, which reveals that surveyed firefighters aged 35 to 39 faced an age-specific cancer rate up to 323 per cent higher than that of the general population of the same age group.</p>
<p>3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:</p>
<p>a) collaborate with the Fire Brigades Union, fire and rescue services, and leading specialists in fire toxicology to mitigate the effects of carcinogenic effluents on firefighters in Wales;</p>
<p>b) establish a preventative health programme to monitor and record exposures for all firefighters in Wales, including annual cancer screening as a minimum standard; and</p>
<p>c) align Wales with international best practices in safeguarding firefighter health.</p>

<p>Thank you. Can I now call in Jane Dodds, please?</p>

<p>Can I just bring in Jane Dodds?&nbsp;</p>