Protection from Redundancy (Pregnancy and Family Leave) Bill

James Sunderland Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 3rd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) and congratulate him on his important Bill. I know that the Government have been waiting to do something on this matter for a while, so I rise to support the Bill and hope for a unanimous decision if and when we vote on it.

Becoming a new parent can be an incredibly exciting but incredibly anxious time. The stresses about jobs being on the line can and do create additional pressure. A lot of progress has been made in this area, but as hon. Members have said, more needs to be done. I have spoken in the House about my own beautiful nieces and nephew. I want them all to have the same opportunities and support in the workplace, irrespective of whether they are male or female. My great and hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Gareth Bacon) alluded to the fact that things are good, but there is much progress to be made. I have met his daughter, who will be a leading light in whatever industry she chooses to pursue.

As someone who was educated in the United Kingdom, one of my personal frustrations is that my female friends, who are head and shoulders above me in particular, face barriers to getting back into work when they choose to have a family. We continue to have low unemployment, and the Government continue rightly to focus on productivity. More than 50% of the workforce potentially have to step back. As and when they decide to come back into employment, it is typically to jobs that need to be flexible and so they are less successful in the eyes of the company.

I represent a lot of young families. In my South West Hertfordshire constituency, 32% of households have dependent children—that is higher than the England and Wales average of 28%—and the proportion of zero to 19-year-olds is higher than the national average. We would expect that in a home counties seat, where families typically start out.  People get married, predominantly in London, but then when they are looking to have a family, they look out towards places such as Rickmansworth in my constituency, which is on the tube line, or where I live up in Tring, which normally has a good train service into London. Constituents should not in my eyes need to consider their job security when going through the emotional rollercoaster of hopefully starting a family or building on their family, but the sad reality is that in all likelihood that is absolutely a consideration they need to have, and that is why this Bill is so important.

As has been alluded to, back in 2015, the EHRC conducted a survey of 3,200 women, of whom a significant minority spoke about the difficulties they had, whether from being forced out of work by redundancy or effectively being forced out by the conditions they were having to work in post pregnancy. More than one in 20 of those mothers were put under pressure to hand in their notice. As someone who used to run a small business, that is shocking, because what any employer should be doing is nurturing their workforce. While there is loyalty with a pay packet, there should be loyalty based on the terms and conditions and atmosphere within work.

Each and every one of us in this place is effectively a small employer with the staff we recruit. I thank Sarah Varley from my office for helping me put together this speech. A lot of what we do is reliant on their expertise and support. It is not money that is the driver, but making sure they can have a lasting legacy through us as their representatives. As and when any of my staff look to hopefully get married and have children, I hope that this type of Bill will already be in place, such that they are not thinking twice about the conditions they are likely to come back to, whether they choose to come back into the political bubble in this place or to go on to bigger and better things.

Climbing the career ladder for women remains an obstacle. I have referred to my wife before, and she is more successful than I am and has been since the day I met her. She is a great woman, besides her judgment in men, but I will leave it at that. More seriously, when I look at people like her and her peer group, having the opportunity to drop in or drop out of a career path in my eyes should be quite normal. My friend the hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central was in the military for many years, and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) similarly had a solid career and then chose to do something separate by becoming an elected representative. The children of today are likely to have seven or eight distinct careers, and we should actively encourage the horizontal movement of successful people, because that is how we remain a cutting-edge country.

I have spoken a lot in this place about supporting wealth creators. Wealth creation does not necessarily mean supporting the unicorns; in my eyes it means supporting the SMEs to remain active and profitable. Some 80% of our economy is reliant on the SMEs doing well. I know that the Minister is a great fan of that narrative, and I look forward to continuing to support his excellent work in that area.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for his excellent speech, and I agree with every single word. I think he touched upon this early when he spoke about economic benefit. Employers out there are thinking, “Oh my word, we need these people back in the workplace.” There are very good reasons for people being in the workplace, but does he agree that this measure will bring nothing but economic benefit to the UK by increasing the workforce and getting more out of the workforce, because we are treating them better?

[Mr Mohindra]

My hon. and gallant Friend makes an excellent point. As a Conservative, my personal philosophy remains that the state should get out of the way and only needs to step in as and when appropriate. In this instance, it is appropriate. On Second Reading, there was talk about the German strategy. The hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central referenced that back in October 2022. My personal view remains that an outright ban on redundancies is not appropriate at this stage. We should always look to encourage better behaviour and good practice and, where appropriate, nudge that behaviour change, and this particular Bill does that.

I have referred to my personal experience as an SME, and the additional barriers that the Bill as is creates are appropriate. However, if they became too onerous, the unintended consequences could be significant and make profitable companies unprofitable, with the workforce not in place. I remain supportive of this legislation because it is the right thing to do and it is structured in a way that, in my eyes, will have the most impact. 

In terms of support for the reform, this Government and previous ones have continuously evolved this policy area in the right way. In January 2019, BEIS launched a consultation into pregnancy and maternity discrimination. More than three quarters of respondents agreed that the redundancy protection currently provided during maternity leave should be extended when someone returns to work. My hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Angela Richardson) referred to the difficulty that a new mother experiences when they go back to work, and that they need additional support. Having a cut-off after pregnancy seems a bit harsh. The provision to extend it into the period of return to work is appropriate, because everyone needs a transition. A mother’s body, family and lifestyle are fundamentally affected when they have the joy of welcoming a child into the world.

It is worth noting from that BEIS consultation in 2019 that the responses were positive from not only employees but employers, because they understood the benefits of doing this. That demonstrates the breadth of support for reform. More importantly, there is cross-party support in this place. I do not think that anyone at any stage in the Bill’s progress has been against it. I am sure that the Bill will pass Third Reading today.

The Women and Equalities Committee conducted an inquiry into this matter, which found that pregnant women and mothers report discrimination and poor treatment in work more now than a decade ago. Although that may indicate a rise in women reporting such issues, it undoubtedly shows that the problem persists. This issue is still here and will not go away without our intervention.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kevin Hollinrake)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. First, let me thank my friend the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for bringing this important Bill forward for debate. It is one of three very important measures we are taking through the House today. We have this Bill on protection from redundancy, the Bill on carer’s leave introduced by the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) and the Bill on the right to request regular hours, promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Scott Benton). Those measures are on top of other workplace changes that we have made or are making, such as those on neonatal care leave, the Employment (Allocation of Tips) Bill, which we debated only a couple of weeks ago, and measures on the right to request flexible working.

That is not really consistent with the implication of the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain) that the Government are going backwards on workers’ rights; far from it, we are absolutely taking this forward. He talked about the vehicle for doing so, and personally I think it is an absolute honour to be able to take through a piece of legislation such as this; it is a great honour for the hon. Member for Barnsley Central. I have had the chance to take through legislation on a couple of occasions during my career as a Back Bencher, and it is great to be able to do that, so I do not agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford East. There are different ways of taking legislation forward in this place, and a private Member’s Bill is a perfectly appropriate one. The Government support this measure.

As we improve workers’ rights, it is however important to say—a number of my colleagues have referred to this, as did the hon. Member for Barnsley Central—that we must also consider the impacts on business. Clearly there are extra costs in measures such as these; the costs here are about £30 million initially for business through familiarisation costs and ongoing costs of about £1 million a year. We must consider the burdens on businesses as we take these measures forward.

There is a recognition now that, although covid’s effects on our freedoms were temporary, the effects on the workplace are much more long term, and workers clearly now want a fairer and more flexible workplace. Business needs to provide that fair and flexible workplace if we are to solve some of the labour challenges across our nation. Those challenges are not just affecting this nation; many are attributing our labour shortages to Brexit, but I do not accept that characterisation. These problems are arising across the world; for instance, the USA currently has 10.7 million vacancies with only about 6 million people looking for work, a higher ratio of vacancies to people looking for work than ours. There are challenges right across the globe.

[James Sunderland]

The Minister is making a persuasive argument and I agree with everything he is saying. We heard earlier about the economic benefits of the Bill, and it is imperative to get more people back into the workplace. In Bracknell Forest in 2009, the birth rate was 1.86. It came down in 2019 to 1.65, and has come down again in 2022 to 1.58. Fewer women across the country are having children, which will have a detrimental effect on our economy in the future. Does the Minister agree that this Bill might encourage women to start families and have children, because they know employers will respect their rights and that they will not be discriminated against?

May I also raise the importance of early years funding, even though that is not a responsibility of the Minister’s Department? It is essential that we do more to allow women to go back to work with their young children in early years care, for which we need more funding.