The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Dean Russell)

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It is an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain). I thank him for his contribution and his questions, which I will do my best to cover. If I do not, hopefully, we can cover them separately as we move forward.

I truly thank the hon. and gallant Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for bringing this important legislation forward. I thank, too, all of the Members who have spoken on this important matter today, including: the hon. Members for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq), my hon. Friends the Members for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey) and for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken), my right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), with his incredibly powerful and moving comments, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Lee Anderson), my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers), and the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows). I will come to some of the key points as I progress with my speech.

I wish to echo the thanks of the hon. Member for Barnsley Central to my predecessors. I often say that anyone who takes on these roles stands on the shoulders of giants. I am very fortunate to be building on the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Jane Hunt), whose work has been phenomenal, and my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), with whom I have worked closely and whose work has been even more phenomenal in helping us get to this point today.

My right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet both predicted what I am about to say: I am pleased to confirm that the Government support the Bill. I look forward to working with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central in Committee. We have talked a lot about recruitment; he did an amazing job of recruiting many members to his Committee—hopefully more women than men, although I was not keeping count.

I am pleased to support the Bill from a personal perspective. I am the father to an inspirational daughter; the husband to an incredible and smart wife; the son to a loving and hardworking mother; my sister is a cancer survivor and has dealt with challenges with such kindness and strength; and I am an uncle to beautiful nieces. The Bill is trying to support women and girls for the future to feel true equality in their lives and in the workplace. It certainly signals that to them all.

The Bill is another example of how Parliament works so well together. When we support and challenge each other, we get the best legislation and we show the country that we are all compassionate and believe in getting the legislation right. That often means that things take a bit more time, but the trouble is the very small number of unscrupulous businesses. We heard moving comments from the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) about how when people think they can get away with things, sadly they do, and in some of the worst instances. Most businesses are honourable and do the right thing, but we have to ensure that there are no holes in the legislation, because those who want to get around doing the right thing will always find those holes. It is right that the legislation takes time and it is fabulous that we are discussing it.

I know what a crucial issue pregnancy and maternity discrimination truly is and the pernicious effect that it can have on both the immediate and longer term prospects for women in work. More generally, it puts a drag on equality and productivity. We heard earlier about the challenges not just to the workplace and to the economy but to mental health. The Bill will make a difference not just in the workplace but at home, so that people truly have a work-life balance. That means not having to worry about things that they should not need to worry about.

Dean Russell

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My hon. Friend has done incredible work on her private Member’s Bill. Officials and I are looking at it very closely. I applaud her for her work not just on that but generally. She is a staunch, hardworking Member for her constituents. That is why I am pleased to be here and to have taken on this important portfolio, for as long as it may last—hopefully years rather than days.

Irrespective of who is at the Dispatch Box, the Government are committed to ensuring that the UK is the best place in the world to work and grow a business. We need a strong and flexible labour market that supports participation and economic growth. Let me put on record why the Government support the legislation. When we talk about female economic empowerment, we tend to talk about positive facilitative policies: parental leave and pay, flexible working, women on boards and so on—policies looking to drive positive action to achieve better outcomes.

We are taking huge strides to deliver equal opportunities for women in the UK. They include mandatory pay gap reporting, the largest ever cash increase in the national living wage in 2022 and passing the landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021. It is pleasing to see that nearly 2 million more women are in work since 2010. The number of women on FTSE 350 company boards is up by over 50% in just five years. The number of women in FTSE 100 company boardroom roles has jumped to 39% from 12.5% 10 years ago. There is a higher percentage of women on FTSE 350 company boards than ever before. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West pointed out however, there are some very negative statistics that we need to address.

Dean Russell

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I thank my hon. Friend for his kind comments. Equality is not just for the sake of equality: it improves things on every level—the economy, the workplace, the challenge in boardrooms and many other areas. I was pleased to hear my hon. Friend mention that 80% of his office staff are women, because that is a powerful example of how we in this place can lead from the front. We talked earlier about mental health. I have noticed in the past few years how people here have talked much more about mental health, and now it is talked about much more in the workplace and in society. That is a really important example of this House leading. I remember a few years ago in 2015 when I had a small role in helping to support, in a professional capacity, a report by the all-party parliamentary group on women in Parliament. It looked at how we could encourage more women into the workplace and, in particular, more women into politics. We need to have that at the front of our minds at all times.

On International Women’s Day in March this year, we announced a package of initiatives to help to open up more opportunities to women and to boost the post-pandemic recovery, including by promoting transparency and fairness in pay, ending employers asking about salary history, and supporting women who want to return to the science, technology, engineering and maths workforce. We have an extensive suite of parental leave and pay rights. Parents have access to a range of leave and pay entitlements in a child’s first year, giving working families more choice and flexibility about who cares for their child and when. Our maternity leave entitlement is also generous. To qualifying employed women we offer 52 weeks of maternity leave, of which 39 are paid, which is three times more than the EU minimum requirement. For self-employed women and those who are not eligible for statutory maternity pay, maternity allowance may be available. Both maternity payments are designed to provide a measure of financial security, to help women to stop working towards the end of their pregnancies and in the months after childbirth in the interests of their own and their babies’ health and wellbeing.

As well as the positive steps we can encourage or require employers to take, we need to clamp down on poor and inappropriate practices, such as waiting for a woman to return from maternity leave and for the current protected period to end, and then—terribly—making her redundant. That is just so wrong. We know that one of the key drivers of the gender pay gap is the time that women stay away from work. Ensuring that women are not needlessly forced out of the workplace is therefore an important way to tackle that inequality and maximise the economic contribution that women can make. As the hon. Member for Barnsley Central explained, the incidence of pregnancy and maternity discrimination, and the poor treatment of pregnant women and new mothers, is still far too high. That is unacceptable, and why the Bill is so important.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham—I cannot see him in his place but I am sure he will be listening elsewhere—asked whether the Government will produce guidance on pregnancy and maternity discrimination advisory boards. I will take that back to the Department, but there will be work to ensure that information is communicated far and wide so that both employers and employees are aware of those rights.

The hon. Member for Barnsley Central and others mentioned the German model. I am conscious that there is always a question whether we can push further and faster and do more. I definitely take his comments on board, but the Government do not think that it is right to follow the German model; I will happily follow up separately with specific details about why we do not agree with going that far. However, there is merit in how the Bill takes definite strides in that direction.

The personal stories told today have been really powerful. Emily and Natasha have been mentioned; my condolences and thoughts are with them after the challenges that they have faced. I hope that the hon. and gallant Member’s work today will ensure that what happened to them is not repeated. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn spoke about the discrimination during pregnancy that her friends faced, which was a really powerful way of bringing to life why the Bill is so important.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West asked about cultural change. As he alluded to in his intervention just now, this is a societal thing. We can change things through legislation, but it is often much better to ensure that we change things in society. The Bill should be the backstop rather than being front and centre for businesses—they should just do the right thing.

My hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough did an excellent job, both as my predecessor and in her comments today. I commend her for ensuring that we have moved in the right direction with the Bill. As the hon. Member for Bradford East said, getting collaboration around the table on amendments—never mind getting a private Member’s Bill agreed by the Government—is an immense achievement, and my predecessor has kept the Bill on the table.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster made the point that it is so essential to ensure that women can continue to pursue their career. Nobody should feel that wanting to have a family should end their career. That should never be the situation in the 21st century, or any century. We need to go full force on this.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet spoke about economic activity. She made the point that this is not just about being nice and doing the right thing; it has a substantial impact on the bottom line and on this country’s economy.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield—I should call him my hon. Friend, but I am sure he will be my right hon. Friend at some point; he is always right honourable to me—was so eloquent, as always. He always hits the nail on the head. He made the important point that if we retain women we can also navigate the challenges of skills shortages. That is so important, especially when we consider that there are almost 1 million roles available. Let us make sure that we promote all opportunities to all people.

The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw spoke so eloquently about the challenges that she faced many decades ago. Hopefully, many of them have since been addressed in legislation, but the Bill will take things even further.

I note the point that the hon. Member for Bradford East raised about tribunal time limits. The Government recognise that there are concerns that in certain circumstances the three-month time limit for bringing Equality Act-based cases to tribunal may not feel long enough. In July 2019 we ran a public consultation on whether the limit should be extended; the positive impact that such a change could have is clear from the responses that we received. The Government response, which was published in July 2021, committed to

“look closely at extending the time limit for bringing Equality Act 2010 based cases to the employment tribunal”.

We continue to consider the evidence for doing so, and we understand the positive impact that it will ultimately have.

In conclusion, these measures will provide invaluable support and protection for parents during what should be an exciting and joyous time—pregnancy and the start of their child’s life—as they juggle work and caring responsibilities. The extension of MAPLE to pregnancy in a period of return to work is backed by evidence and analysis. The Government’s and the EHRC’s research, and the work of the Women and Equalities Committee and others, have established that there is a clear need for further work to help parents at these times. We must take steps to tackle the discrimination and poor treatment that some undoubtedly face.

The Government are pleased to support the Bill. It is wholly in line with our ongoing commitment to support workers and build a high-skilled, high-productivity, high-wage economy. We look forward to continuing to work with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central and, of course, all the new Committee members who are in the Chamber today to support the Bill.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kevin Hollinrake)

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It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. First, let me thank my friend the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) for bringing this important Bill forward for debate. It is one of three very important measures we are taking through the House today. We have this Bill on protection from redundancy, the Bill on carer’s leave introduced by the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) and the Bill on the right to request regular hours, promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South (Scott Benton). Those measures are on top of other workplace changes that we have made or are making, such as those on neonatal care leave, the Employment (Allocation of Tips) Bill, which we debated only a couple of weeks ago, and measures on the right to request flexible working.

That is not really consistent with the implication of the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain) that the Government are going backwards on workers’ rights; far from it, we are absolutely taking this forward. He talked about the vehicle for doing so, and personally I think it is an absolute honour to be able to take through a piece of legislation such as this; it is a great honour for the hon. Member for Barnsley Central. I have had the chance to take through legislation on a couple of occasions during my career as a Back Bencher, and it is great to be able to do that, so I do not agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford East. There are different ways of taking legislation forward in this place, and a private Member’s Bill is a perfectly appropriate one. The Government support this measure.

As we improve workers’ rights, it is however important to say—a number of my colleagues have referred to this, as did the hon. Member for Barnsley Central—that we must also consider the impacts on business. Clearly there are extra costs in measures such as these; the costs here are about £30 million initially for business through familiarisation costs and ongoing costs of about £1 million a year. We must consider the burdens on businesses as we take these measures forward.

There is a recognition now that, although covid’s effects on our freedoms were temporary, the effects on the workplace are much more long term, and workers clearly now want a fairer and more flexible workplace. Business needs to provide that fair and flexible workplace if we are to solve some of the labour challenges across our nation. Those challenges are not just affecting this nation; many are attributing our labour shortages to Brexit, but I do not accept that characterisation. These problems are arising across the world; for instance, the USA currently has 10.7 million vacancies with only about 6 million people looking for work, a higher ratio of vacancies to people looking for work than ours. There are challenges right across the globe.

Kevin Hollinrake

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I heard my hon. Friend’s comments earlier about recognising the pressures on businesses and making sure that we consider their interests when making legislation, and I entirely agree with what he says. Some 575,000 people of working age have left the workplace since the pandemic started. We want to attract more of those people back to work, because they have an important role to play. There are talented people outside the workforce, and businesses need more people in the workplace; measures such as those in the Bill are required.

I liked the description of this legislation by the hon. Member for Barnsley Central as a sweet spot. It is absolutely right that we consider the interests of business alongside those of workers. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra) talked about his small business background in his speech, rightly again looking at the interests of business as well as those of workers.

I thank all Members who have spoken on this important matter today and in previous stages; I am grateful for their participation. I also repeat the thanks from the hon. Member for Barnsley Central to my ministerial predecessors, my hon. Friends the Members for Watford (Dean Russell), for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) and for Loughborough (Jane Hunt) and to others for their work in getting us to this stage, and I am pleased to confirm that the Government continue to support the Bill.

It has been heartening to observe support for the Bill from across the House, and I was pleased to hear that reflected in the debate. No one should have to face pregnancy and maternity discrimination. It has a pernicious effect on the immediate and longer-term employment prospects for women, and for businesses it can act as a drag on equality, productivity and, indeed, their reputation generally. That is why I am pleased that we are here today. The Government—indeed, the Business Secretary and I—are committed to ensuring that the UK is the best place in the world to start and scale a business. We need a strong and flexible labour market that supports participation and economic growth.

I would like to put on the record why the Government are supporting the Bill. When we talk about female economic empowerment, we tend to talk about positive, facilitative policies—parental leave and pay, flexible working, women on boards and so on—looking to drive positive action to achieve good or better outcomes. To help those policies have maximum impact, we also need to clamp down on poor or inappropriate practices such as discriminating against pregnant women or new mothers, or waiting for a woman to return from maternity leave when the current protected period ends and then making her redundant.

We know that one of the key drivers of the gender pay gap is the time when women stay away from work. Ensuring that women are not needlessly forced out of the workplace is therefore an important way of tackling that inequality and maximising the economic contribution that women can make. As the hon. Member for Barnsley Central explained to the House, the incidence of pregnancy and maternity discrimination and the poor treatment of pregnant women and new mothers is far too high. This is an unacceptable situation.

The law is absolutely clear that discriminating against women on the grounds of their pregnancy or because they are on maternity leave is unlawful. Legislation is in place in the Equality Act 2010, which every employer must follow. There are also regulations under the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999—the so-called MAPLE regulations—which currently put a woman on maternity leave, or a parent on adoption or shared parental leave, in a preferential position in a redundancy situation. My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Gareth Bacon) made the key point that that also applies to adoptive parents. It was announced in the December 2019 Queen’s Speech that the Government would extend those redundancy protections to prevent pregnancy and maternity discrimination.

Earlier in 2019, the Government had consulted on extending the existing redundancy protections into pregnancy and for a period of return to work following relevant leave. The relevant types of leave are maternity, adoption and shared parental leave. Consultation respondents strongly agreed that six months would be an adequate period of time for redundancy protections to be in place after an individual on maternity leave has returned to work. Consultation respondents also strongly agreed that protection should be extended to parents who had taken adoption or shared parental leave. The Government’s consultation response committed to extend redundancy protection during pregnancy and for six months after a new mother has returned to work, and to afford the same protections to those returning from adoption leave and shared parental leave.

Under MAPLE, before making an employee on maternity leave redundant, employers have an obligation to offer them, and not just to invite them to apply for, a suitable alternative vacancy where one is available. The Bill is important as it will allow us through regulations to extend MAPLE protection into pregnancy and for a period following the birth of the child covering the return to work period. The existing protection that applies when a parent is taking relevant leave will remain unchanged.

Let me now address some of the points made by Members today. The hon. Member for Barnsley Central made an important point about extending the window of access to employment tribunals. As I think he knows, tribunals do have discretion; they can, in specific circumstances, look at individual cases brought outside that three-month window which might normally be deemed to be out of time. The number of circumstances that might not fit within the window has increased owing to covid and other pressures, such as waiting lists. We are considering these matters, and will, I am sure, engage in further conversations with the hon. Gentleman.

We have talked before about the requirement for six consecutive weeks of leave that needs to be taken to qualify for extended leave, which was mentioned today by both the hon. Member for Barnsley Central and the hon. Member for Bradford East. We are looking carefully at that requirement, but the purpose of the qualification period is to ensure that these measures are targeted at those who need them most—those who have taken an extended period of leave, not just, for example, two weeks’ paternity leave. Consultations are ongoing, and we are giving the issue earnest consideration. However, I can assure the hon. Member for Barnsley Central and other Members that our interests are aligned with those of workers, and that the people who really need this extra support are at the front of the queue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington rightly raised the issue of balance between workers and businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Angela Richardson) spoke movingly of her own experiences. It was wonderful to hear that she has three children, but she also had three mishaps along the way. I am lucky enough to have four healthy children, but along the way my wife and I had a number of miscarriages, so we have had similar experiences and I do know how distressing it is when this happens. My hon. Friend talked about her experiences of miscarriage, and I think it is fair to say that it is far from straightforward. Pregnancy can be a wonderful time, but it can also be very challenging—a period of highs and lows even at the best of times. There can be pretty severe mental and physical impacts, which we should always bear in mind, and that is why this kind of flexibility in the workplace is so important. The last thing that any employer should do is add an injustice to insult and injury.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool South talked about the Government’s excellent record on workers’ rights. The death of workers’ rights has often been greatly exaggerated during debates in the House, but we are strengthening rather than diminishing them. In this regard we have always been way ahead of the pack, including European Union member states. I look forward to the debate that we shall have later today on the Second Reading of my hon. Friend’s excellent Workers (Predictable Terms and Conditions) Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire talked about his nieces and nephews, and his wish to ensure that they would be given equal treatment when they entered the workplace. Good employers always do that, of course, but in this instance we have in mind employers who do not do the right thing, and this legislation is intended to ensure that they do in future. As Members know, I spent 30 years in business. What we are proudest of in business is our legacy and our reputation, and it seems to me that our reputation is founded on how we treat not only our customers but the people who work for us. That approach has tremendous recruitment and retention benefits for business.

My hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild) rightly said that we were here to protect people from various types of mistreatment. That is indeed one of our jobs here in the House. He asked how we could promote these measures so that employers knew about them. We are consulting and working with key stakeholders such as the CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses and the TUC to try to ensure that these changes are as widely known about as possible in the business community. He also asked about regulations, as did the hon. Member for Bradford East. We are making good progress on regulations and officials are working at pace, although I cannot give an actual date for when those regulations will be in place. My hon. Friend will probably understand that we have some key considerations here and we want to ensure that we get things right as we bring them forward.

As I conclude, may I thank the civil servants who have worked fantastically hard on this Bill? They are coping with a huge amount of legislation at the moment, some of which has been brought in very rapidly, for obvious reasons. Let me name them individually: Tony Mulcahy; Jenni Aara; Aoife Egar; Faye Penlington; Bryan Halka; Roxana Bakharia; Jayne McCann; Keisha Parris; and Cora Sweet, from my private office, who is sitting in the Box there.

To conclude, as my predecessors have said to this House before, these measures will provide invaluable support and protection for pregnant women and new parents. A little bit more security during these times in people’s lives is so important. The evidence and analysis of the need to introduce additional protection is absolutely clear. Through the Government and the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s own research, and the work of the Select Committee on Women and Equalities and others, we see that there is clearly a need for further support for parents at these times. The Government are pleased to support this private Member’s Bill, which is wholly in line with our ongoing commitment to support workers and build a high-skilled, high-productivity, high-wage economy. The Government look forward to continuing work with the hon. Member for Barnsley Central and those in the other place to support the passage of these measures.