Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill

Debate between James Duddridge and Paul Farrelly

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[James Duddridge]

I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman, who makes his point eloquently. That arrangement is better for those who have a developing problem, because they have the support of professionals who are there to monitor their behaviour. There is nothing to stop someone sitting in their bedroom and gambling away a fortune while drinking half a bottle of Scotch, but that would not be allowed at a roulette table. Under my new clause, someone gambling in that way would be stopped by staff within the casino, so the hon. Gentleman’s point is absolutely true.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

We have tried to avoid complexity in the Bill because there is the prospect that it might be challenged. However, it will not be challenged on the grounds that it clears up a simple anomaly, which is what new clause 1 would do. I thoroughly support the new clause. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is odd that we have gone through extensive pre-legislative scrutiny, but the Government have ignored this central recommendation of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee?

[James Duddridge]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is disappointing that more has not been taken on from the pre-legislative scrutiny. Otherwise, what is the point of having it? However, the Government have been right to resist the obvious temptation to tag too many things on to the Bill. There is a balancing act to be done, but some kind of enabling legislation in the Bill would allow the tinkering to take place later and with more consultation.

Customers should be allowed to choose what they want to do and where they want to do it. Customer choice is moving in favour of gambling in casinos and the legislation should not stand in the way of that. In many ways, the new clause is deregulatory.

Offshore Gambling Bill

Debate between James Duddridge and Paul Farrelly

Friday 25th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Paul Farrelly]

I take the hon. Lady’s point, but I think she is rather doing herself down, because the case made in this Bill and the fact that the horse racing levy exists at all show the power of the industry and the representations made on behalf of racing.

On the thrust towards a point of consumption basis, the vast majority of the RGA’s members are based offshore, where they pay very little tax. Therefore, although I respect the RGA in many respects, we have to take its arguments against the thrust of the change to the regime with a pinch of salt. The big exception among its members is bet365, which in 10 years has become the biggest employer in north Staffordshire. It is largely UK-based—all its sports betting has always been UK-based—because the founding Coates family believe in creating employment locally and paying their fair share of tax. Their commitment to our local area and sport in general is shown in their ownership of Stoke City football club, as the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) will very well know. Indeed, unless someone is a very wealthy racehorse owner—I am looking to Manchester—owning a premier league football club is going to make a big dent in their pocket. The commitment of the Coates family is demonstrated and well regarded.

We do not see it in the RGA’s representations, although it appears in its previous submissions to the Select Committee, but bet365 wholly welcomes the Government’s change to a point of consumption basis for taxation. By virtue of that, it is important to recognise that the RGA does not speak for all its members on that matter or, because of the success of bet365, for a big slice of the UK online market.

[James Duddridge]

It is interesting to hear what bet365 has done, for good reasons, within its community. Has the hon. Gentleman learned from his discussions with the company whether it has managed to persuade any other organisations to start thinking in a similar way and to come back onshore on a voluntary basis, or are those organisations so far removed from bet365 that it will remain an isolated case?

[Paul Farrelly]

I do not want to get involved in the internal politics of the RGA. All its members are reputable, and the vast majority—the likes of William Hill, Coral and bwin.party—will of course accept a licence if we move to the new regime. They will not want to be unlicensed operators. That is not how they do business and they would not make money in a big market such as the UK as comfortably as they do at the moment.

Cutting through the bluster, we can see that tax is the fundamental factor. It is important to recognise that, for those operators, this is about getting the tax right. The other arguments are incidental, and those operators will be able to live with the changes. Some will have different experiences because of their distance from the UK market, but they will all be able to live with the changes as long as they are comfortable with the tax arrangements. That very point was highlighted in William Hill’s submission to the Select Committee for our scrutiny of the Government’s draft Bill. Having made all its arguments, the RGA has effectively suggested that it could live with all the changes if the gross profits tax were reduced from, say, 15% to 5%. That is the crux of the argument. We will test all those objections in our scrutiny Committee on Tuesday. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton said, our report called on the Treasury to establish what should be the current level of tax for online gambling, taking into account the need to bring everyone on board and not to encourage an unlicensed grey market.

The continued presence and success of bet365 in sports activities is rather inconvenient for the rest of the industry, because it shows that the doomsday arguments do not have any substance. Bet365’s success proves that it is fully able to compete here, and there is no reason why the other big names should not do so as well.

Let me set out some of the facts for the House. In the year ending March 2012, bet365 took £12 billion in wagers, which was 45% up on the previous year. It made pre-tax profits of £116 million, which was up 22%. That is a record that most UK businesses can only envy in the current economic environment. Its total contribution to the UK Exchequer, including betting duty, VAT and £20 million corporation tax, was £130 million; and, importantly for our area in these difficult times, it recruited another 500 staff.

Bet365’s record is exemplary, and if it can be so successful there is no reason why the likes of William Hill, Coral or Ladbrokes—all the names, old and new, that we know so well—cannot be successful here too and contribute to the UK Exchequer. This is all about tax, and for the Government it is all about revenue. It would be helpful for us, and for the industry, if the Minister shed some light on any conversations that he has had with the Treasury on how its modelling of the tax take has progressed and on the discussions it has had with the industry on tax levels.

If tax is the nub of the argument for the industry, the core issue in the Bill is, as the hon. Lady has made clear, a special plea for the horse racing industry. I do not have the opportunity to indulge myself in racing as much as the hon. Member for Shipley does, but I enjoy the odd visit to the races and the odd flutter. We have Uttoxeter nearby in Staffordshire, and Chester races are just across the border.

I am not intrinsically against a special deal for the racing industry, because it is a reality that the racing levy is part of the landscape—the hon. Lady talked about grandfather rights—and it is a national lottery for the horse racing industry. However, I do not believe that she made the point as strongly as she might have done for Ministers to back the case for the racing industry and not to cave in to special pleading for, say, a football levy to help struggling clubs. An example of such a club is Port Vale, which is at the opposite end of the city from Stoke City FC—owned by bet365—and recently went into administration. If the hon. Lady would like to intervene on me, I would be interested to hear why she thinks the Minister should not listen to special pleading from other sports.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Duddridge]

I am not sure whether I might not still be on my feet at 1 o’clock, but perhaps if I rush through my comments I will find time to place a bet on behalf of myself and my hon. Friend.

Although the majority of operators currently targeting British consumers are subject to established and effective regulatory regimes, not all of them are, so we are suffering from those problems now. For example, some online operators have begun to target British consumers and very little is known about the level of their regulation or, indeed, consumer protection. There is concern about that issue and others when it comes to European operators and, in particular, operators beyond Europe without sufficient regulatory oversight. There has been some debate about light-touch regulation and what is sufficient, but there needs to be a level playing field. I will not go into details of my particular view on the level of regulation—that would be wrong and I do not think that it applies to this Bill.

Even where operators are subject to appropriate levels of overseas regulation, there are different regulatory standards and approaches. This lack of parity inevitably leads to British consumers receiving different levels of protection depending on which operator they use. I recall discussing case work with another Member of Parliament in the Tea Room. A constituent of his had lost £25,000, by which I mean that their online betting account, which had been very successful and had a balance of more than £25,000, was hacked into, a losing bet was made and that money was lost. They maintain that it was not they who made the bet and I am not sure—I was not privileged to sit in on the relevant debate—whether that online gambler was subject to online regulations.

We wander around and make decisions in the United Kingdom under the security of British law. Although there are exceptions when there are problems, largely we are very well protected as UK citizens when making purchases. It is clear that that is not always the case in the gambling arena and that the 2005 Act has not allowed for it. I welcome the exploration of how we can solve some of those problems, whether through the Offshore Gambling Bill or the draft Gambling (Licensing & Advertising) Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton referred initially to the remote gambling Bill. Perhaps that was the working title of the Government Bill. My hon. Friend nods in assent, for which I am grateful. I was somewhat confused when preparing for this debate, because I thought there was a third Bill in play, so I am grateful to find that that is not the case. It is difficult enough to deal with two Bills at one time.

Without specific requirements imposed by overseas jurisdictions, operators may not be compelled to report certain information, such as suspicious betting activity, to the Gambling Commission or relevant sports bodies, even when such an activity may involve a British sportsperson and/or British consumers. As such, there is a potential risk of match fixing. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme used the term “in-match betting”, I think, which I was not familiar with, but I suspect it covers things such as how many times a bowler will stray away from the wicket during the course of one over. I understand from press reports that that is an increasingly popular sign of betting.

[Paul Farrelly]

The hon. Gentleman is right, but the not very technical term is “in-game betting”, as I understand it.

[James Duddridge]

I am grateful for that correction. One of the things emerging from this debate is that I need to spend some more time betting in order to be able to contribute more fully to debates such as this.

There is a potential risk of match fixing and suspicious betting practices taking place on overseas-licensed sites, including those that may have an impact on sports in Britain. The British authorities may not be notified, thereby placing individuals at much greater risk.

Some offshore operators do share information with the Gambling Commission, in addition to their home regulator, and they do so on a voluntary basis. I would be interested to hear more examples and details from the Minister. It is all very well to say that they share some information, but is it sufficient? I suspect there may be some smoke and mirrors regarding what is and what is not shared.

The detail is often insufficient for it to be used in an investigation. In fact, I cannot find many examples of investigations taking place. That limits the Gambling Commission’s ability to conduct thorough investigations when it does not have powers of jurisdiction. There have been instances when the commission has not received the relevant information and has been unable to obtain information from its overseas licensed operators or regulators. That is clearly not in anybody’s interest or in that of the market to work effectively. Let us face it: if the market is not robust, people simply will not place a bet. Why would they place a bet with an organisation—be it online or offline, onshore or offshore—if they thought that it would wriggle out of the contract? It is important to look at the benefits of bringing all this back to the UK for the sustainability of the industry.

In some cases, the Gambling Commission is told that the refusal to provide information is down to overseas data protection requirements. I would be interested to hear whether the Minister thinks that that is a legitimate concern or just a veil that these organisations are using. There is currently no way of ensuring that the protections of the gambling regulations framework, particularly those afforded to licence condition 15—for those who do not know, that is about the reporting requirements on restrictions of betting activity—are applied on a consistent basis to operators who transact with British consumers or are allowed to bet on British events.

With technological advancement, it is becoming increasingly difficult to identify the level of regulatory oversight of gambling service provision and where the key equipment is, which is important in relation to the legislation.