European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

James Cleverly Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2019 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (James Cleverly)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Lindsay, and to see so many good friends—right. hon. and hon. Friends—making our Benches groan under the weight of their attendance. Someone in this room is box office. It could be the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich or it could be me, but I strongly suspect it is you, Sir Lindsay.

I am conscious that we are short of time, so I will try to rattle through my speech, which addresses almost all the points that have been raised. It is important to be clear from the outset that the statutory instrument does not change the time and date that the UK will leave the EU. That happened at the European Council on 11 April as a matter of international law.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Has not the Minister, in those few words, revealed the scandal of what has happened? Some 17.4 million people voted to leave; 500 Members of this House voted to exercise article 50; and one person, the Prime Minister, who had said 100 times that we would leave on 29 March, stopped it. That killed democracy.

[James Cleverly]

I will address that point, if my hon. Friend will be patient for a minute or two.

The decision to seek a further extension followed votes and the passage of primary legislation in Parliament that supported the extension of article 50. The statutory instrument is about ensuring that our domestic legislation reflects international law and about avoiding confusion in our domestic statute book, which would help no one.

[John Redwood]

Does the Minister understand the feeling of constitutional outrage in this country, which many of us have come to express? Because of the Government’s timetabling, and the packed Committee, we have not been able to make speeches. That is why this Parliament is losing it with the public, and that is why the mood out there is so hostile to the Government and the Opposition—because they delayed Brexit and are stealing democracy from the British people.

[James Cleverly]

I completely understand. I have been knocking on doors, as I am sure my right hon. Friend has, and I am well aware of the anger—I will not be euphemistic and use the word “frustration”—out there about the fact that Brexit has not yet been delivered. Again, I will come on to that specific point.

I will have to be ungenerous with regard to further interventions, because I am conscious—

[Mr Francois]

Will the Minister give way?

[Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Cleverly]

I will, but to my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford.

[Vicky Ford]

I thank the Minister, my neighbour, for giving way. I certainly do not want to prolong the discussion—a lot has been said—and, most importantly, I do not want to prolong the uncertainty in the country. Can he confirm that if an agreement is achieved before the end of October, we can leave before then, and that there is nothing in the statutory instrument to prevent us leaving earlier, if an agreement is achieved earlier?

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cleverly]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, which I will address. I will try to rattle through, because several specific points have been raised by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, but predominantly on this side, which I wish to address and for which I have notes.

Parliament has been clear. It voted to extend article 50 beyond 29 March. Both Houses approved the statutory instrument that redefined the exit date in line with the initial extension to 12 April. Despite the Government’s opposition, Parliament supported and passed the Cooper-Letwin Act, formally known as the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019, which required the Government to seek a further extension to article 50. Parliament voted in favour of the Government’s motion to seek that further extension and, during the passage of the Cooper-Letwin Act, voted to ensure that any further statutory instrument required to fix the domestic statute book would be subject to the negative procedure. It cannot be said that the statutory instrument goes against the will of Parliament.

Nor can it be said that the Government are going beyond their remit. Seeking a further extension was not just the will of Parliament, but a legal requirement set out by the Cooper-Letwin Act. The Act required the Government to lay a motion to set out their intention to seek a further extension. The Government’s motion was laid on 9 April and approved by a majority of 420 to 110.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I will take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment—it is a delight to see him in his place. Could he refresh my memory about whether the Cooper-Letwin Bill was introduced after the Prime Minister had chosen to proceed in that way?

[James Cleverly]

I would have to refer to Hansard to make a decisive comment on that. I can only assume from the certainty with which my hon. Friend delivered that intervention that he knows the chronology. The main point is that the Prime Minister was required to act by an Act of Parliament, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone highlights, we all—and that includes the Government—have to act within the law.

The agreement reached with the European Council was for an extension until 31 October 2019, but with the important caveat—this was the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford—that it could be ended earlier if the withdrawal agreement is ratified prior to that date. That was agreed by the UK and the EU and the new date of 31 October 2019 was fixed in international law in the early hours of 11 April.

[Mr Francois]

Will the Minister confirm two things? The first is that we cannot extend article 50 again unless the UK Government consent—in other words, that the EU cannot extend it again against our will. Secondly, will he confirm that no indicative vote in this House would stop us leaving on 31 October and that if we do not ask to extend, the only thing that would legally stop us leaving on that date is an Act of Parliament? Is that correct?

[James Cleverly]

The Government have made it clear that the default position if no other proactive measure is taken by the House is that we leave on 31 October, without an agreement if that is the case. That is the default position and that is why the Government maintain preparations for what we call a no-deal Brexit on 31 October 2019.

[Mr Francois]

So only an Act of Parliament will stop it.

[James Cleverly]

The default position is that that is how we leave. The House would have to do something proactively to prevent that.

The purpose of this statutory instrument is to align UK domestic legislation and international legislation. Hon. Members will recall that for the first extension of article 50, the equivalent SI was subject to the affirmative procedure and debated in both Houses before it came into force.

[Sir William Cash]

I hope that my hon. Friend will not mind my saying that what he is doing, quite understandably given the complexity of these questions, is reading out the brief that has been given to him by the Government lawyers and others. What he is not doing, if I might say so—and neither are some other members of the Committee—is addressing the questions that I put in my opening argument. That is rather a different question, and that is what the debate ought to be about.

[James Cleverly]

With the greatest respect to Members, as I said at the start of my speech, my belief, having read through what is my speech rather than someone else’s notes, is that the points my hon. Friend brought up are addressed. If in the short time available I can reach the end of my speech, I am confident that those issues will be covered. If I am cut short, he might be left disappointed.

The Cooper-Letwin Act changed the procedure from affirmative to negative. That was in response to the tight timescales faced and Parliament’s desire that, following an extension, domestic legislation would be updated to avoid unnecessary and widespread confusion. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone highlights the pace of this process. Indeed, the timescales were tight. The extension of article 50 was agreed in the early hours of 11 April. At that point, exit day in our domestic law was still defined as 11 pm on 12 April. Although the agreement with the EU meant that we would remain a member state, if this SI had not come into effect before 11 pm on 12 April there would have been legal confusion.

[Mr Baker]

Will the Minister allow me to intervene on that point?

[James Cleverly]

I am very conscious of the fact that many of the points raised by Members are included in my speech, and if I keep taking interventions I will not be able to get to them. I know that my hon. Friend will be frustrated with this, but I will plough on.

Major changes to the domestic statute book reflecting our exit from the EU are due to take effect on exit day, which at that point was defined as 11 pm on 12 April. Those changes apply across a huge number of policy areas and are designed so that our statute book works when we leave the EU. Once the further extension of article 50 was agreed, we needed to amend the dates to reflect the new point at which EU treaties would cease to apply to the UK, and ensure the correct functioning of our domestic statute book.

The consequences of not changing the definition of exit day would be serious, and would be of benefit to no one. We estimate that tens of thousands of amendments to our domestic legislation will be made in the light of EU exit. Those include changes that relate to the sharing of information, reporting requirements placed on businesses and public institutions, and the role of the European Commission in issuing licences and certificates—those examples are from across the statute book. It is clear that unless exit day is correctly defined, there will be significant confusion and uncertainty for businesses and individuals, including the risk that firms stop trading to avoid legal breaches and given their uncertainty about new customs, excise and VAT regimes that may kick in.

I have slightly lost track of which interventions were shot at me from the Government Benches, but I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe asked whether we can confirm that the UK must agree an extension. [Interruption.] In fact, no; it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford. Any extension needs to be agreed in the UK. The agreement of this House was taken to the EU and expressed by the Prime Minister the last time around, on 11 April. Something similar would have to be done for any future extension.

The SI defines exit day as 31 October 2019, in line with the European Council’s decision, and therefore in line with international law. Hon. Members will be aware that the extension can be terminated before that point if the withdrawal agreement is ratified at an earlier date. Although this SI simply reflects the decision on article 50 in domestic law, it is the Government’s main priority to leave the European Union as soon as possible. The Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK should leave the EU in an orderly way and without undue delay.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Will the Minister concede to the Committee that, as part of the Prime Minister’s negotiations to get this extension to article 50, she gave further concessions to the European Union, some of which—but not exclusively—are that the withdrawal agreement cannot be re-opened before 31 October and that there will be no discussions about our future relationship before that date?

[James Cleverly]

The extension to article 50 did not come with conditions from the European Union.

Once we know the clear date and time when the withdrawal agreement is ratified, we will ensure that it is reflected in the statute book. In response to the point made by the hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, should exit day change from 31 October 2019 in international law for any reason—for example, because the withdrawal agreement has been ratified—the Government will bring forward another SI to ensure that that change is reflected in our domestic statute book.

An extension to article 50 was not the Government’s desired outcome. There was an opportunity to leave on time and in an orderly fashion by voting for the Prime Minister’s withdrawal agreement. The House did not take that opportunity, and instead mandated that the Prime Minister should seek an extension, which she duly did. As soon as that extension was agreed by the European Council, it became binding in international law. However, the issue today is not the extension of article 50 itself, but whether our domestic statute book reflects the extension.

Without this SI, the status of our domestic statute book would be confusing and unclear, with the provisions of UK and EU laws clashing. The Government will soon bring the withdrawal agreement Bill to the House, so that the UK can leave the EU in good order and as soon as possible. I therefore hope that the Committee agrees that this extension, and this SI, were essential.

[The Chair]

I call the hon. Member for Chelmsford. [Interruption.] Okay—you indicated before that you wished to speak, but are now happy not to, which is great.

Sir John, before I bring you in, will you make sure to leave two minutes for Sir William? I call Sir John Redwood.