Draft Law Enforcement and Security (Separation Issues etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

James Brokenshire Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2020 General Committees

[The Minister for Security (James Brokenshire)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Law Enforcement and Security (Separation Issues etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg, and good morning to other members of the Committee.

The Committee will be aware that the Government have been preparing for the end of the transition period on 31 December. This statutory instrument forms one of the legislative changes we are making as part of those preparations to ensure that the law is clear and accessible on cross-border law enforcement and criminal justice matters. I have no doubt members of the Committee will have studied the statutory instrument carefully and read the accompanying impact assessment and explanatory memorandum. I hope it is clear from those not just what the regulations do, but what they do not do.

The regulations we are debating today are required under any European Union exit scenario. They will not enact an outcome of any negotiations. To that end, they are scenario agnostic. Instead, they will provide legal and operational clarity regarding the handling of live law enforcement and criminal justice related cases and procedures at the end of the transition period, and will ensure that the United Kingdom has a fully functioning statute book.

The regulations will do that by performing three main functions. First, they will make the changes needed in UK law to give full effect to the separation provisions contained in the withdrawal and separation agreements. These provisions concern ongoing cases and procedures at the end of the transition period, and place reciprocal obligations on the UK and European economic area-European Free Trade Association states regarding their handling.

Secondly, and in a similar vein, they will make the necessary amendments in UK law to give full effect to the related data provisions contained within those agreements. These provisions concern data accrued before the end of the transition period or under the separation provisions, and will provide clarity for operational partners regarding the handling of such data.

Thirdly, the regulations will address a number of deficiencies that would otherwise arise at the end of the transition period, for example where new EU law has come into force during the period since the Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 were passed. Addressing those remaining deficiencies will ensure that the UK has a fully functioning and relevant domestic statute book at the end of the transition period.

Overall, the scope of this statutory instrument is narrow. It will give full effect to the separation provisions in the withdrawal and separation agreements by making the necessary technical changes in UK law. Making these changes will provide legal and operational clarity on the handling of live law enforcement and criminal justice cases at the end of the transition period, and will therefore enable the UK to meet its obligations under these agreements.

The regulations are required regardless of the outcome of any negotiations, and form part of a package of legislative changes we are making to ensure that the UK is ready for the end of the transition period. The safety and security of our citizens is the Government’s top priority and this statutory instrument helps to support that.

I commend the regulations to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Brokenshire]

Although I appreciate the Opposition’s support for the statutory instrument, unsurprisingly, I do not accept the shadow Minister’s contentions about the Government’s approach and posture. I say to him that the UK is, and will continue to be, a global leader on security and one of the safest countries in the world. The Government take their responsibilities for the safety and security of the people of this country incredibly seriously.

As I have highlighted, the regulations will provide legal and operational clarity regarding the handling of live cases and procedures at the end of the transition period, and they will ensure the UK has a fully functioning statute book. As I have explained, they are required under any scenario, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations. Talks obviously continue in Brussels. There has been a constructive atmosphere, and progress has been made on putting legal texts together, but there are still significant differences on the familiar difficult issues—the so-called level playing field, and obviously in relation to fishing. Time is short, and we are focused on reaching an agreement with the EU. In the space of criminal justice, there is a good degree of convergence in what the UK and EU are seeking to negotiate on operational capabilities. In any negotiation, however, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We obviously look to continue those negotiations and to find a solution that fully respects the UK’s sovereignty.

I shall respond to some of the points made by the shadow Minister in relation to a non-negotiated outcome, which I think was the main thrust of his remarks. In the event that it is not possible to reach an agreement, the UK has well-developed and well-rehearsed plans in place. He speaks about the incredibly important role of the National Police Chiefs’ Council as well as the National Crime Agency, and I pay tribute to them for all their efforts and their work in seeking to ensure that we are well prepared under any scenario. If the shadow Minister looks at those letters, he will see that they underline those organisations’ preparedness. I pay tribute again to them for the work that they have put in.

[Conor McGinn]

Does the Minister agree with Martin Hewitt that the loss of tools will mean that, even with the contingencies in place, systems will be slower, provide less visibility and make joined-up working more cumbersome? That is not my contention; that is what the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council said.

[James Brokenshire]

I will come to the hon. Member’s broader point. We can obviously discuss the specific issue of the second-generation Schengen information system, SIS II, and what that does and does not do. Notably, it was introduced in this country only in 2015. We had been reliant on various other measures, such as Interpol, to be able to facilitate exchanges.

This country will remain a safe place, and I reject any contention that there is any lack of emphasis on national security or on ensuring that we do not continue to be a global leader in the way that this country has been.

[Conor McGinn]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Brokenshire]

Perhaps I can help the hon. Member by saying that the plans for transitioning will clearly involve co-operation with EU member states in order to reach alternative non-EU arrangements by the end of the transition period where available. Broadly speaking, that would mean making more use of Interpol, Council of Europe conventions and bilateral channels, which are tried and tested mechanisms that the UK already uses for co-operation with many non-EU countries.

[Conor McGinn]

I have asked the Minister a very specific question: does he agree with the assessment of Martin Hewitt, the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council? In a letter to the Home Affairs Committee, he expressed in stark terms his concerns about these specific matters. Does the Minister agree with him or not?

[James Brokenshire]

I think the shadow Minister’s points are specifically about the second-generation Schengen information system. We have always said—I have said it myself before—that there will be some mutual loss of capability in the event that the UK no longer has access to SIS II. That is why we offered to reach an agreement with the EU that delivers a similar capability. The Commission maintains that it is not possible legally for the UK to continue to co-operate through SIS II after the transition period, but we have maintained our offer. Obviously, we know that there is clear benefit on all sides to working together, which is why we are positive about a continuing relationship with our European partners. That allows us to benefit through our collective and shared security. In the absence of SIS II, we will use Interpol channels, which predate our SIS II access and provide the capability to exchange data and communicate with all our international partners quickly and securely. I underline that the UK has an excellent relationship with Interpol in that regard.

Work continues on the issues and on preparations for all outcomes. The hon. Member for St Helens North highlights national security and counter-terrorism. National security has always been the responsibility of member states. Co-operation with European partners on national security largely takes place outside EU structures and so is not dependent on our membership of the EU. Our bilateral and multilateral co-operation will continue regardless of the outcome of any negotiations. It is important to highlight the work of organisations such as the Counter Terrorism Group, which facilitates counter-terrorism co-operation across 30 European intelligence and security services.

It is important to stress the steps that have been taken, such as the establishment and funding of the International Crime Coordination Centre to help police forces adapt to new processes after transition. Alongside extensive domestic preparations, we are also engaging with member states who have expressed their willingness to continue to share critical law enforcement data with the UK using Interpol channels. Although I recognise that today’s statutory instrument is narrow, dealing with the effective continuation of various operational data sharing post transition that may have commenced before the end of the transition period, no one in this Committee should take anything I say today, as the shadow Minister has tried to play it, as anything other than an indication of our determination to ensure that the UK remains a leader in security. Steps have been taken by police, the NCA and other partners to see that we are ready and we have given them support. Clearly, we would like an agreement with our European partners. That is where the Government’s emphasis continues to be, and we remain positive that even though gaps remain and even though time is short, that can still be achieved in the time available. That is where the Government’s focus remains.

Question put and agreed to.