Mitochondrial Transfer (Three-Parent Children)

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Robert Flello

Wednesday 12th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. That is at the heart of the issue.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

Another issue occurs to me with regard to knowing who the third or, indeed, fourth parent is or was. Let us suppose that, in subsequent generations, further scientific research finds that another fault is being passed down generations. Without knowing whether the third or fourth parent several generations back carried some other gene that has come to the fore only after 150 years, someone would not know whether they were affected. There is a Pandora’s box of problems.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

That must be right. It ends up being a multi-generational experiment with the lives of people.

To return to the PNT technique, it is effectively cloning. As I said, it is telling that the licence for the experiment was adapted from the licence given to create Dolly the sheep. Cloning is widely regarded as a dangerous technique. Essentially what is being done is eugenic.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

As so often, my hon. Friend is right.

The dictionary definition of “eugenic” is:

“Of or bringing about the improvement of the type of offspring produced”.

The 1922 Eugenics Congress called it

“the self direction of human evolution”.

There is grave question mark about eugenics. It frightens almost every sensible person. It is not only people who share my views who think that. In a letter to The Guardian dated 15 March 2013, that fear was made explicit by a number of medical experts. It is interesting that they chose The Guardian, which is not a bastion of right-wing reaction, to make that point. In a country nervous about genetically modified crops we are making the foolhardy move to genetically modified babies.

There are three categories of risks and dangers that have not been fully considered. The first is the category raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), namely practical risks relating to the long-term efficacy of the therapy. An article published in Nature in October 2012 said:

“Pioneering work in nonhuman primates is critical for the development, and safety and efficacy evaluations, of new treatments.”

That view has been discounted by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority without any good reason being given. Current research using PNT in macaques has yet to be shown to be successful. Macaque zygotes do not survive the PNT process well, even though their oocytes are less prone to abnormal activation and fertilisation than human ones. If that is the case, surely we should continue with such experiments first, rather than relying on the fact that four monkeys have reached the age of three.

[Robert Flello]

On that point, the research that has been done talks about generations of mice or of monkeys, but that does not address the fact that until there have been three, four, five or 10 generations, we will not know what the long-term effects are.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. If the Minister would say that, her standing in North East Somerset would rise even higher, although it is hard to believe that is possible.

The Government’s own consultation—this is crucial—says:

“It is estimated that 1 in 200 children born every year in the UK have some kind of mitochondrial DNA disorder.”

The number of serious disorders is much lower, but one in 200 has some kind of mitochondrial disorder. It is worrying that that is in the consultation because the premise is that 0.5% of the population are born imperfect and that in future only perfect people should be born. Many of us have imperfections, but they make up humanity, and the mixed variety of interest, thoughtfulness and development that is humanity often comes from our faults, as well as our abilities. It is a fundamentally dangerous road to start down because, although the technique cannot at this stage affect eye colour, some clever scientist will eventually work out how to ensure that babies have blue eyes and blonde hair, or whatever people want. Every time something like this happens, we go to the next stage and the argument becomes, “Well, we’ve done this, so it is logical to continue.” When that line has been crossed, the argument against going further is merely a matter of degree; it is not absolute.

[Robert Flello]

I fear that we have already had the push to having perfect babies. Abortion on ground E of disability means that babies with even slight imperfections do not see the light of day.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

One aspect of political correctness that I like is calling disabled people “differently able”. People with disabilities have different abilities and skills, and contribute to the benefit of society in a different way from those of us who have the use of all our limbs, and so on.

Although the current aim is small, 10 children every year, who might have been born, will be replaced by 10 different babies. That is not a major problem crying out for an urgent solution, but the solution that is being proposed is a fundamental change in our understanding of our own humanity.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Robert Flello

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a very interesting point, but if we aggregate across society at large, the determining factor will be that people want to earn more money. Although some individuals may prefer leisure, of course, many will want to continue earning to increase their standard of living or to provide for future generations. We are slightly moving away from the point, however, and there are some key aspects to which I wish to return.

I mentioned fairness. It is a bizarre definition of fairness to say that it is fair to set tax rates at a level that raises less tax. That is an argument that makes PR and spin and the like much more important than the realities of economics, and it is bad politics as well as dreadful economics.

I also want to tackle the question of the morality of taxation. Is it morally right that people should pay half their earnings over to the Government? I think it is morally wrong. I think there is a moral case for low taxation and allowing people to keep the fruits of their labours, and when the rate gets to 50% that is simply too high in a moral sense, even if it is economically successful, which it is not. I do not believe the state has the right to take half of somebody’s earnings.

[Robert Flello]

Is it morally right that time and again constituents come to my surgery with the figures in front of them, saying, “This is my income and these are my outgoings; I cannot afford to live”, because of the low level of their income and the apparent inability of the benefits system now to support them?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I obviously do not know about the individual cases that come to the hon. Gentleman’s surgery, but with a benefits bill for this country of £220 billion a year, there really ought to be—