Loan Charge

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 18th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

May I join the congratulations to the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) on securing this important debate? This is why Parliament exists: we are here to seek redress of grievance from an overmighty Executive who abuse their power. This is a classic example of the state abusing its power through aggressive tax collection.

Why is it that in the Bible the tax collector is seen as the villain on almost every occasion the tax collector is referred to? It is because the tax collector seeks to extract more than is by law allowed. In our system, it has always been the case that the job of the tax collector is to raise the tax set out by Parliament—not a penny more, nor a penny less. It is not for the tax collector to squeeze out extra from people if that was not intended.

We know from this discussion that HMRC did not think there was anything wrong with these schemes early on. How do we know that? As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, it employed people using these schemes. So we are saying either that HMRC is so incompetent that it has no idea about the basis on which it is employing people, or that actually, because it saved some money, it thought these schemes were licit. The other thing we know is that constituents of ours sent in tax returns acknowledging that they were using these schemes, and HMRC did not question them.

Then, in a panic, worried about the tax receipts that were coming in—2010 is an important date when tax receipts were very low and the country had an enormous deficit—a squeeze gets put on, and that squeeze becomes retrospective. But retrospective legislation is basically unconstitutional except in extraordinary circumstances. Whenever there is any retrospective part of legislation, it has to be specifically approved and cleared by the Attorney General before it can be brought before the House. Why is that? It is to safeguard the constitutional right that people know the basis of the law under which they are operating. That is surely proper, because with retrospective legislation people who have behaved properly and honestly and followed the law that Parliament had passed suddenly find that they had not. That is entirely unfair and unreasonable, and it could criminalise any of us for actions we committed years ago.

[Dean Russell]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in all these scandals, the presumption of innocent until proven guilty has been turned on its head, and we see the presumption of guilt and one being unable to prove one’s innocence? To use a biblical analogy, this is not so much David versus Goliath; it is David versus an army of Goliaths, and David has had the slingshot taken away from him.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. HMRC, through the amalgamation of the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise, has extraordinary powers. Customs and Excise historically maintained extraordinary prerogative powers—much greater, actually, than those of the Inland Revenue—and the coming together of those two bodies has brought a more aggressive culture to our tax system. It is a culture that assumes that taxpayers, following the law as they understand it and indeed as HMRC understood it, may be doing something wrong. That is a bad principle under which to operate. Members need, as we are, to look after the interests of constituents who are being affected in that way.

We need to allow people to know that their tax affairs are cleared after an inquiry has not been opened. That is set out: there is a 12-month period in which tax returns remain open and a seven-year period under which people have to keep records, and yet we have passed retrospective legislation that overturns all of that. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) was absolutely right that those of us who were here in 2017 should be appalled that this got through without being noticed and without being stopped. What he said to the Minister was absolutely right: we should look carefully at the ministerial responses.

HMRC is in the odd situation of being a non-ministerial Department. It is not properly accountable. With most Departments, the Minister says “Go” and—at least theoretically—they goeth. With HMRC, its independence is such that it can effectively ignore ministerial control. But that should work two ways. If the Minister cannot control HMRC, he should not read out the rubbish that it provides for him to read out from the Dispatch Box, and he should be well aware of the warnings given of Ministers who have either been willing to read out things that turn out in future to be untrue, or not asked the right questions.

I very much look forward to the speech by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), because he has the advantage of independence. Not having gone native by virtue of being in the Treasury, he can bring—I hope—an independent mind to this. Bearing in mind that there will be an election this year, and who knows what may happen in that and what responsibilities may fall upon his shoulders, it is really important to know that the Opposition are on the side of proper constitutional practice.

The whole point of our system is that we come here, as we have done since the 13th century, to seek redress of grievance for our constituents when they are badly treated. This is a classic example, and Governments are absolutely appalling at answering it. People have mentioned the Post Office, but it is not just that; it is Hillsborough and infected blood. For some strange reason, Governments have a desire to defend the mistakes of long since past Administrations, and they do that to the disadvantage of constituents today. I hope that on this occasion it will not happen, or at least it will not continue to happen.

There is an ability to set it right, and there is an ability for the House to do more. If HMRC is not producing documents, we have things up our sleeves that the House can do to continue to exert pressure—the Backbench Business Committee can allow Humble Address motions to be tabled—but it would be so much better if the Minister at the Dispatch Box, who is one of the most able and intelligent Ministers in this current Administration, were to grasp this and deal with it to save our constituents from further pain—and, frankly, put HMRC in its box.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 27th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend puts it absolutely correctly. We should always think about what people can do. We should always be positive as a society. I am so glad to hear about the work of the Papworth Trust. Organisations like that are a lifeline of support for some of the most vulnerable in our communities, and everything that can be done to support them should be done.

[Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if essential local services such as a post office need to close temporarily, there should be measures such as transport links, like a minibus, to nearby post offices or a temporary solution based nearby so that elderly residents are not cut off from this important service? May I request that we have a debate on this subject?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

If this is a specific case, I think an Adjournment debate is the most suitable approach. The Government are strongly supportive of ensuring that everyone in the country, especially the vulnerable, has access to essential services via the post office within their local community. As 99% of the population are within three miles of their nearest post office and 90% are within one mile, I do understand that if one is shut for a temporary period, that can be difficult for some local residents.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The right hon. Denis Howell did indeed become Minister for Drought, and the drought ended. Whether this was because of the power of the Government or the power of a higher authority is not, I think, a particular matter for debate, as it happens.

We are having Backbench Business debates later today, and we continue with a regular programme of Backbench Business debates. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that we try very seriously to ensure that the days’ debates are provided in accordance with the Standing Orders.

[Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)]

I am sure that children around the world, including my own special nieces, were very pleased earlier this week when the Prime Minister shared on Twitter that he had spoken to Father Christmas to confirm that he would be bringing joy to the world on his sleigh as he does every year. Will my right hon. Friend please confirm that Santa’s elves are also able to help in Santa’s workshop this year, so that we can further reassure children around the world not to worry, because Santa is coming this Christmas to bring cheer as he does every year?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am sure that the elves are busily doing their magic work to ensure that Christmas stockings will be filled for children across the world. I think they count as key workers because they need to go into work to do their jobs. Whether they have to wear masks or not, I am not entirely sure; I have not yet found out. We should no doubt have an Adjournment debate on this important subject. We can be pleased that Christmas is coming, presents will be delivered and we will be able to see members of our families over Christmas. That is reassuring for one and all.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 17th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

There is an incongruity in the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He says, quite rightly, that Scotland is a forward-looking, fine, upstanding nation, but then he wants to kow-tow to the European Union, and take Scotland’s fish and give them all away to the fisherfolk of the European Union. He cannot have it both ways. Either he maintains his pride in Scotland, shared with the United Kingdom, or else he wants to go and be a vassal of the European Union.

[Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)]

In my constituency, we have a local landmark on a road called Woodmere Avenue, but it is all for the wrong reasons. As cars navigate through it, they get scratched. Local residents feel like they are between a rock and a hard place, or between a post and a scratched car, in the sense that local bureaucracy going back and forth over many years has meant that they have not been able to get this changed. May we have a debate to look at how we can unwrap local issues around bureaucracy so that we do not keep going through a groundhog day of residents requesting change, having to do petitions to try to get change, and then it not happening? Can we please get pavement politics back into government?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We really need to discourage councils from their war against the motorist. We should be backing the motorist. Driving is a great sign of one’s independence, liberty and exercise of historic freedoms. But local authorities are, quite rightly, independent, so the answer is to campaign to get in a Conservative council.

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 3rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Government have done an enormous amount to support the overall economy, as I have already pointed out, by providing £35 billion for the furlough scheme, £8.5 billion for the self-employed and £15 billion for coronavirus business interruption loans for our small and medium-sized enterprises and large businesses. So a huge amount has been done to help businesses across the country. The price of oil fell into negative territory during the peak of this crisis and has recovered from that quite significantly. Volatility in the oil price is something everybody in the oil industry is well aware of.

[Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)]

This great place plays a part in the leadership of the country and in imbuing everyone with confidence. During the recent lockdown, we have faced challenges on filling the Benches, although I appreciate the incredible work that Mr Speaker and his team have done to make this place safe. Given the public health challenges we face in making sure that the Benches can be refilled, might we open this up to the Great British public and use their ideas and innovation so that we can get these Benches full again and get Parliament working as it always should?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The wisdom of the British people knows no bounds and therefore we should always welcome ideas from our constituents. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda is sniffy about his own constituents. I think the wisdom of the people of the United Kingdom knows no bounds. That is why we have achieved so much over the history of this nation. We have been innovative. We have been a nation that has led the world. We really are—

Business of the House

Debate between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dean Russell

Thursday 4th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for reminding us of the anniversary of Tiananmen Square, though I must confess that I had not personally forgotten it. It is a reminder of what communist totalitarian regimes are capable of. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we will stand by our duty to the British nationals overseas—the holders of BNO passports and those who are eligible for them. They will be entitled to come here for a longer period and there will be a pathway to citizenship for them. The behaviour of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation is of course a matter for that corporation, but it may be that it is more closely allied to the Chinese Government than to Her Majesty’s Government.

[Dean Russell (Watford) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House please tell the House what impact covid-19 has had on the progress of the Government’s legislative agenda and what measures he is taking to ensure that the Government deliver on all the manifesto commitments that we were elected to deliver just six months ago?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

As I said, during virtual proceedings we were not able to have any Public Bill Committees or secondary legislation Committees. That has meant that there is a blockage in our legislative agenda and we were running at about one third of the time available for our Bills to go through the necessary procedures. Those Bills are important—they affect people’s lives: the Domestic Abuse Bill, the Northern Ireland legacies Bill, the Fire Safety Bill, the Trade Bill. A whole number of Bills deliver on the promises we gave to the British people and that is why we have to be back here to ensure that we as politicians do what we said we would do.