Public Procurement

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, asked me to make a speech on behalf of the Committee and on his behalf because he thought that he would not be here, but such is the attraction of a European debate that he is in his place anyway. None the less, the Committee is grateful to Her Majesty’s Government for facilitating the debate so quickly. The time scale under the Lisbon treaty for national Parliaments to submit a reasoned opinion on a subsidiarity issue is extremely tight. In this instance, the European Scrutiny Committee received the views of the National Assembly for Wales only a couple of days before the Committee’s meeting last Wednesday, when it recommended that the House adopt the draft reasoned opinion.

The Government have welcomed the proposals, and many of the detailed measures in them, and have provided an impact assessment that suggests that the benefits would significantly outweigh the costs. However, as we have heard from the Minister, they have one major concern—namely, that the proposals would require member states to establish a national oversight body, which would not only have a range of administrative and regulatory powers, but would be able to “seize” jurisdiction of the courts and pre-empt their functions in a way that the Government consider might infringe the principle of subsidiarity.

As I mentioned, this concern was echoed in the letter from the Chairman of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. I understand that the Scottish Parliament takes a similar view. Let me say from the outset that this concern is shared by the European Scrutiny Committee for reasons that I will come on to in a moment. So the debate today is not about the generality of the draft directive, in spite of some of the comments that we heard earlier. Rather, it is about a subsidiarity issue that the Government, two of the devolved Assemblies and the European Scrutiny Committee have identified.

Before I turn to the subsidiarity issue, I should explain that a reasoned opinion is a new procedure under the treaty of Lisbon, available to national Parliaments if they wish to challenge Commission proposals for legislation on subsidiarity grounds. National Parliaments have eight weeks from publication of a proposal to submit a reasoned opinion. The deadline in this case is midnight Brussels time, which would be 11 pm Greenwich mean time, on 8 March 2012.

If such opinions represent one third of all votes of national Parliaments—the bicameral UK Parliament has two votes—the Commission has to reconsider its proposal. We understand that, as the Minister mentioned, one other national Parliament, Sweden’s Riksdag, is also submitting a reasoned opinion on similar grounds. Even if the threshold is not met—in reality, the numbers required mean that it is highly unlikely that it will ever be met—the Commission responds to each reasoned opinion it receives. In addition, national Parliaments can, acting through the Government, now challenge EU legislation on the grounds that it infringes the principle of subsidiarity.

The principle of subsidiarity is born of the wish to ensure—if you believe this, you would believe anything—that decisions are taken as closely as possible to the nationals of individual EU member states. It is touted as a buffer against unnecessary supranational—not supernatural—legislation but it has been largely unsuccessful. If only the legislation were supernatural, we might find that our experience of the European Union was a happier one. None the less, its definition is important. It is set out in article 5(2) of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, which states:

“Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union level.”

In addition, the treaty requires the EU institutions to ensure “constant respect” for the principle of subsidiarity as laid down in protocol No. 2 on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. Accordingly, article 2 of the same protocol obliges the Commission to consult widely before proposing legislative Acts. This is one of the parts that has not taken place. Such consultations are to take into account regional and local dimensions, where necessary. If the Commission fails to do so, a reason must be given in its proposal.

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the principle of subsidiarity would work far better if rather than just being able to prompt a response from the Commission, groups and national Parliaments were able to strike down policies of the Commission?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

If I may divert from the set text from the European Scrutiny Committee, it is always worth remembering that subsidiarity started as a theological term in the Roman Catholic Church, of which I am a member. That is one of the most centralised bodies of any organisation anywhere in the world, with power vested in the Holy Father, so I have always been rather suspicious as to what the purpose of subsidiarity is.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

As a fellow Catholic, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he agrees that it is one thing to have the Jesuitical concept of subsidiarity, which has been brought into the rule-making of the European Union, as a theological question, and that it would be far better if the matter were regarded purely as one of theology and not exclusively one for political purposes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his helpful intervention. I do not think one should use the term “Jesuitical” too pejoratively, as the Jesuits are a fine body who, I believe, educated my hon. Friend—

[Mr Cash]

With great success.—

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

With enormous success, which is acknowledged around the country and for which we are all grateful. However, I agree with the fundamental point that it is a political rather than a theological reality in this case.

By virtue of article 5 of protocol No. 2, any draft legislative Act should contain a “detailed statement” making it possible to appraise its compliance with the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.

I turn now to the Committee’s view, as expressed in the draft reasoned opinion. The first conclusion we came to was that the Commission had failed to consult member states in the Green Paper, or otherwise, on the possibility of setting up a single national oversight body. This is in clear breach of article 2 of protocol No. 2, and I ask the Minister to say whether he agrees with this, and whether he intends to pursue it with the Commission.

Similarly, there is no evidence in the Commission’s explanatory memorandum or impact assessment of it carrying out the requirement under article 5 of protocol No. 2 to prepare a “detailed statement” containing

“some assessment . . . in the case of a directive of its implications for the rules to be put in place by Member States, including where necessary the regional legislation”.

As a consequence, the draft directive on public procurement and, by implication, the draft directive on procurement by public entities is said by the National Assembly for Wales to breach the devolution principle in both Wales and Scotland. I quote from the letter of 23 February from the National Assembly for Wales:

“The proposal also fails to have regard to the principle of devolution in imposing the duties on a single body.”

[Mr Watts]

I agree wholeheartedly with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. The only weakness that I perceive is that it is clear to me that the Commission believes that there is not fair trade within Europe. Some countries abide by the rules and others do not. We have heard examples of that today. How would the hon. Gentleman address that problem?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am in complete agreement with the hon. Gentleman that one of the problems of the European Union has long been that we as a nation are particularly good at obeying the rules and our continental colleagues are not necessarily so good at obeying the rules. This is for all sorts of historical reasons and understanding of our constitution as against their constitutions. The problem, and the reason why I am fairly relaxed about them not obeying the rules, is that one would have to argue for more Europe and more intrusive regulation to get them to obey the rules. That would be a bad thing. I happen to believe, though I am not sure that Opposition Members share this view, that one-way free trade encourages efficiency in the home economy, that one can compete very effectively even with one-way free trade, and that we should be relatively relaxed about how they cheat, if I am allowed to use such a term in relation to our continental friends.

The National Assembly for Wales went on to say about the proposal:

“It fails to reflect the way in which separate implementing regulations have hitherto been made in Scotland, and the way in which extensive administrative and advisory functions in relation to procurement in Wales are exercised by or on behalf of Welsh Ministers.”

The Government’s explanatory memorandum does not consider the impact of the proposals on the devolution settlement, so I would be grateful if the Minister said whether the Government agree with the concerns raised.

Before turning to the Committee’s final conclusion, I should emphasise how important it is that the Commission, which has considerable executive power to initiate legislation, is obliged to consult properly, and prepare a “detailed statement” which assesses its proposals for compliance with subsidiarity. If it does not do so, we risk ending up with a provision such as this, which conflicts with a fundamental principle of the UK’s constitution. I trust that the Government agree with this and will take the Commission to task over it.

Finally, I turn to the proposal to establish a national oversight body, which not only would have a range of administrative and regulatory powers, but could “seize” the jurisdiction of the courts. The Committee thought this an alarming proposal, and it really is. It hits against the heart of our understanding of the separation of powers between governmental agencies and the judiciary. Again, no consultation on that proposal took place and it was not in the Green Paper—it came out later—so we have this great leap in our understanding of the law without any proper consultation. The Committee concluded that the proposal amounted to an unwarranted interference in the domestic legal order of the United Kingdom, where administrative and judicial powers have traditionally been exercised separately, and so infringed the principle of subsidiarity.

The Committee also considered that the combination of functions would be likely to prevent the oversight body from acting judicially without suspicion of a conflict of interest—we looked at that fairly recently when the European Court of Justice ruled in its own favour over the pay of EU officials, so we know how corrupt these EU courts can be—contrary to article 6(1) of the European convention on human rights. That is the core of the matter. It undermines one of the principal objectives of these two directives: to increase legal certainty in the award of procurement contracts. It is for these reasons that the Committee asks the House to approve the Government’s motion on subsidiarity.

European Council

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are making quite good progress on the financial services dossiers. We are having to deal with them one by one. There are some cases where we are actually arguing that countries ought to be able to regulate even further than the EU is allowing—for instance, in building up capital in our banks. However, there are some difficult financial services directives, which we have to deal with one by one, to make sure that they are proportionate and not threatening to our financial services industry, which, as I say, is not just an asset for Britain, but an asset for the whole of Europe.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend elaborate on what he means by “reserving our position” in relation to the fiscal compact? Does it indicate that Her Majesty’s Government doubt the lawfulness of the compact under EU law and are considering a legal challenge at some future date?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me try to shed some more light on that. The position is this. I think there are some major legal question marks over what the 25 EU members have signed up to. However, the best thing for Britain to do, instead of going for an outright legal challenge—which might be partly successful—is to say, “We have our misgivings and concerns. We’ve reserved our position, but we won’t challenge, so long as you are sticking to the elements of fiscal union and not the single market.” I have given this considerable thought and I think that that is the right way forward, not least because there are some things being done in the agreement that the EU treaties give permission for, because they allow member states, as my hon. Friend will know—he is a great expert on this—to do things together under some circumstances. Therefore, the legality is not completely black and white. That is why I think it is in Britain’s interest to use our leverage to make sure that those involved stick to the fiscal union and do not get involved in the single market.

Individual Voter Registration

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

That point has been made, and I looked at it when I visited Northern Ireland, which, for historical reasons and for the reasons it introduced the system ahead of us, requires people to have a form of photo ID when they vote. When that was introduced, it meant that many people were not able to vote, but it is now working smoothly. It has been suggested to us that we should adopt that system. The Government have decided not to do so, but we will listen to the evidence, as it certainly happens in one part of the United Kingdom. As far as I understand—I stand to be corrected—it currently works pretty smoothly, and for those electors who do not have their own form of photo ID, such as a passport or driving licence, there is a specific and very simple electoral ID card, with no database behind it, which they can use to prove their identity—and their age, for all sorts of other interesting purposes that to young people are probably more attractive than being able to vote.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the occasions of personation fraud are extremely rare, but that more fraud is thought to exist in postal voting and that, perhaps, more restrictions should be placed on that?

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and there was a certain amount of fraud in the early 2000s. That is why the previous Government, to be fair and to their credit, tightened up postal voting and introduced the system of requiring identifiers, whereby an individual has to have their date of birth and provide a signature. We can at least be sure that the person who requested the postal vote is the person casting it, but of course it does not give us any confidence in that person being the real, genuine person who lives in that house, as someone may have created a fictitious identity. We can be sure that the person who requested the postal vote is the person casting it, but they could do so on the basis of a completely fictitious identity. Postal voting has been tightened up, and that is good. It is something that we supported and which the previous Government did.

Another reason for speeding up the system is that running parallel systems—the current system and the new system—was likely to be rather confusing and was, I have to say, going to cost a significant amount. We are investing a significant sum in getting this right—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) just lets me finish, we are going to spend £108 million on moving to the system of registration, so we are fully funding the move, and by not trying to run it in parallel with the current system we have saved £74 million, which, given the state of the economy and the public finances that we inherited, a point that I will not labour, is not an insubstantial factor to bear in mind. But it is not at the expense of ensuring that we have a secure and accurate register.

EU Council

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend—[Interruption.] Well, we often agree. It was obviously a developing situation, but I had a meeting with Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy before the Council began. I had been to see the German Chancellor three weeks before the Council, I had been to see the French President a week before the Council, and I think that there was a good prospect of making an agreement. Conversations were also held with a huge number of Finance Ministers and other Government leaders. Clearly the 27 would rather have a deal at 27. They see the problems and difficulties of what they are proposing, but in the end they were not willing to give the safeguards—rational, moderate, reasonable and sensible though they were—and, as a result, I think I did the right thing.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I am sure that the Prime Minister will want to know that the toast of the people in Somerset was to the pilot who weathered the storm, because he has stood up for democracy, he has stood up for free trade and he has stood up for free markets, and this is to be wonderfully commended.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his such full-voiced support.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is a fine, tall gentleman, so I give way to him.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. While he is urging their lordships to stand firm, I wonder whether he might like to remind them that the Parliament Act does not apply so they can insist for as long as they like.

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, although I am surprised he is only taking us back to 1911. He normally takes us back a little further. The Parliament Act cannot be used in relation to this legislation because the Bill would allow for the extension of Parliament beyond five years—possibly to five years and two months—and that Act expressly prevents the Speaker from forcing the Bill on their lordships. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: your lordships, stand firm.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

If you look at the evidence of Sir Paul Stephenson, whom I respect enormously and who did some very good things at the Met—and John Yates—he said very clearly yesterday that the circumstances surrounding his resignation were completely different from the circumstances in No. 10 Downing street. The responsibility that I had for hiring Andy Coulson, the work that he did at No. 10, the fact that he is not there any more—we have discussed this a lot today—are, I would argue, completely different from the issues at the Met about a failed police investigation, allegations of police corruption, very serious problems in that organisation and all the reasons that Paul Stephenson set out yesterday, I respect what he did, but he himself said that the situations are different.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

The Prime Minister has shown in his statement that his private office has behaved with absolutely compelling propriety, which compares amazingly favourably with sofa government. I wonder whether he would agree that the row over this is broadly synthetic and hugely over-egged.

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. What I would say about Ed Llewellyn is that he is—and Opposition Members know this—someone who has served our country, working for Chris Patten and Paddy Ashdown in Kosovo, Bosnia and Hong Kong. Yes, of course, he is a Conservative supporter and a friend of mine, but he is a very loyal public servant who has done great things for this country and who I think is utterly beyond reproach. On this occasion, as on so many others, his judgment was proved absolutely right.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is simply not right. We have had this debate before. It is important because it relates to the revised clause 2, brought about by one of the Lords amendments, which refers to a 14-day period. I know that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) supported it strongly when we debated it in Committee and on Report. Indeed, the Opposition supported our proposition when we voted against an amendment that I believe my hon. Friends had tabled.

Two alternatives can take place. I know this 1924 example goes back a bit, but it is one of the scenarios that can happen. Of course, that did not happen in 1979, but that was because we were at the tail-end of a Parliament, so the general election took place. If a vote of confidence were lost early in a Parliament, the situation I described could occur.

Another important issue came up here and in the other place when the rationale for clause 2 was debated. The 14-day period is not mandatory; it is the maximum period that can apply. If the Government had lost a vote of confidence and there were a general consensus that the country should move immediately to a general election, there would be nothing to stop the Government putting down a motion for an early Dissolution. A vote on it could happen and the general election could be triggered immediately. I am not sure that that argument came out strongly in the other place; that is why it is worth putting it on the record.

We listened carefully to the concerns expressed in the other place about clause 2. We also conducted meetings with the two former Speakers, as I mentioned. We listened and made the amendment. Opposition Members will be pleased that the amendment has been made. The hon. Member for Rhondda said that as we were abolishing the Prime Minister’s right to dissolve Parliament, and placing that right in the hands of Parliament, it would be better to state in the Bill, in clear language, what constitutes a motion of no confidence, so that there can be no doubt.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Will the Minister explain a couple of things? First, is there another example in legislation of a motion being laid down for Parliament to follow, or is it an innovation? Secondly, who will determine whether the motion has been passed in the correct form? Will it be a matter for the courts?

[Mr Harper]

Let me develop my argument, and I will cover the points raised by my hon. Friend. The concern in the other place about the original drafting of clause 2 was raised particularly by the two former Speakers, who felt that not having specific motions laid down, and requiring the Speaker to certify that votes of no confidence had been lost, would draw the Speaker into controversy. This House and the other place were happy that there was no issue about privilege and the courts trespassing into decisions of the House, but it was felt that there was a risk of the Speaker being drawn into controversy. The Government accepted the other place’s view that the language of the motion should be set out clearly.

European Council

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

In terms of future membership of the EU, I think I am right in saying that the conclusions referred only to Croatia, which is completing its negotiations. There was a reference to Serbia’s European perspective, because with the arrest of Ratko Mladic I think that it has taken another step towards European membership. There was no specific mention of Turkey, but as the hon. Gentleman knows, I strongly support Turkey’s membership of the European Union.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

May I congratulate the Prime Minister on the most successful defence of British interests at a European summit since the halcyon days of the noble Baroness Thatcher? Will he turn his negotiating firepower on the Commission’s proposal to increase its own resources tax base?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, although I would not put my efforts in the same class as the famous Fontainebleau negotiation, because the British rebate still benefits Britain to a huge extent—even after the Labour party signed a large portion of it away. But I do hope people agree that they were a good step forward to keep us out of the situation.

On the budget, we have secured a very strong letter to the European Commission about future financial perspectives, saying that effectively there should be nothing worse than a real-terms freeze. That is what we got other countries to commit to, and I am sure that Government Members, like me, would wish to go further, but we are laying down the baseline of a freeze going into a negotiation, and that is a pretty good start.

House of Lords Reform

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[David Miliband]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me and I will deal with that exact point shortly.

To those who say that an elected House of Lords will be stronger, I reply, “Good.” It will be good for the House of Commons and good for Governments of any stripe to face more effective and assertive scrutiny, and, where necessary, revision of their legislation from the House of Lords. That is not the same as advocating the overthrow of the primacy of the House of Commons, or as saying that the House of Lords will be a rival to the House of Commons. This country’s democratic problem is not neutered Government, emanating from the House of Commons, but under-scrutinised, under-accountable, over-centralised and over-confident Government.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

In the first minute of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman said that the House of Lords would not be more powerful; in the fifth minute, he said it would be. I think that it would not be a bad thing if the House of Lords were more powerful, but we ought at least to recognise what we are doing.

[David Miliband]

I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but I have my speech in front of me, and I did not say that the House of Lords would not be more powerful. I made the logical point that the House of Lords could have a stronger voice in the nation’s affairs; that it would not become a rival to the House of Commons, but that it could provide more effective scrutiny of legislation proposed by a Government elected to this House.

The problem in the current system of an over-centralised and under-accountable Government would be significantly reduced by an elected House of Lords. The simplest and most principled case is for a wholly elected House. It has my support. However, I do not accept the argument that the reservation of 20% of seats for independent voices, independently selected, torpedoes the purpose of reform. It is less pure than a wholly elected House, but it may be more practical. The argument that it creates a hybrid House is not strong, given the current composition of the House of Lords, in which the hereditary peers and the non-party peers are in a class of their own.

Let me conclude with some history, which addresses the point that the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) made. I had the pleasure of writing with Lord Irvine of Lairg the 1997 Labour manifesto that committed the new Government to removing hereditary peers from the House of Lords. The wording was designed to pre-empt any queries from the other place on Salisbury convention grounds. However, we did not bank on the willingness of Viscount Cranbourne and his backwoodsmen to threaten the whole of the Government’s programme if we proceeded with the abolition of all hereditary peers. That was the origin of the then Government’s acceptance of the so-called Weatherill amendment, which reprieved 92 hereditary peers.

In speaking to the historic motion to remove some 650 hereditary peers from the Lords, Lord Irvine said that the compromise in respect of the 92

“would guarantee that stage two would take place”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 30 March 1999; Vol. 599, c. 204.]

One reason for its not taking place is that, until now, the Conservative party has been officially opposed to an elected House of Lords. However, the Conservative Opposition in the House of Lords in 1999, in reply to Lord Irvine, said that it was absolutely crucial that one amendment to the Bill should be a timetable setting out exactly when stage two would be put in place.

Twelve years on, we are still waiting, to the shame of all parties in this House. Many of us fear that the Deputy Prime Minister’s Joint Committee will be another recipe for foot dragging. However, for the first time in centuries, the Conservative party has been dragged to support an elected House of Lords. Let us get on with bringing it about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

It is a real privilege to follow the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound).

I begin by declaring an interest, because I have two noble kinsmen in another place, one a Cross Bencher and one actually on the Labour Benches. I feel it would be unhelpful of me to try to abolish them. Generally speaking, as I am sure you would agree, Mr Deputy Speaker, our noble kinsmen should not be abolished.

I am concerned about the draft Bill, because I do not think it tackles the fundamental constitutional issue that we ought to be considering—the fact that there used to be a balanced constitution, with the Crown, the House of Lords and the House of Commons, each having considerable power, authority and influence. In the 19th century the Crown lost its power, and over the 20th century the Lords lost its power, so now all the power in the constitution is theoretically vested here in the House of Commons. Of course, it is not, because it has gone back to the Prime Minister. Effectively, the Crown is more powerful than it has been since the time in the 18th century when the House passed the motion saying that the power of the Crown

“has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished”.

My concern about the draft Bill is that it has been introduced without an examination of how that constitutional imbalance ought to be reformed and improved to get a better-working constitution that does not put all the power in the hands of essentially one person. Our coalition has changed that a bit at the margins—it is sort of one and a half people—but that really is not a very satisfactory constitutional settlement.

We have heard a lot of talk today about the Parliament Act 1911, without, as far as I know, anyone reading it out. I feel that I must put good that omission. The preamble to the Act is very clear, stating:

“Whereas it is expedient that provision should be made for regulating the relations between the two Houses of Parliament:

And whereas it is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary basis, but such substitution cannot be immediately brought into operation:

And whereas provision will require hereafter to be made by Parliament in a measure effecting such substitution for limiting and defining the powers of the new Second Chamber”.

We have not got that. That is the absolute nub and crux of the debate. We need to decide whether a fully elected House of Lords will have such legitimacy that it will then be an equal partner with this House of Commons, as it was prior to 1911 and the Parliament Act. Her Majesty’s Government argue at the moment that that will not be the case, and that all will remain the same. I simply do not think that is credible.

An Opposition Member said that since the removal of the hereditaries, the House of Lords has exercised its muscle more. Why? It has done so because it feels legitimate. It questioned the Salisbury convention. Why? It did so because the life peers thought that they had a greater legitimacy than the hereditaries. We know that secondary legislation is not covered by the Parliament Act, under which we cannot force things through until a year after the end of the current Session. Had their lordships dug their heels in on the alternative vote referendum, nothing could have been done until after the Queen opened Parliament about a year from now. Their lordships did not do that, because they recognised that it would have been an abuse of their non-elected power against the elected House.

As it happens, I am all for an elected second Chamber on that basis. I believe that a lot of legislation that is passed is bad, and I like what happens in the United States, where there is gridlock, and the mad ideas of one politician who happens to be in office for a short time are gummed up. In particular, that would make it difficult to effect major constitutional change on the whim of a junior partner in a coalition based on 23 words of his manifesto—23 words of the Liberal Democrat manifesto against a total, helpfully counted for me this morning, of 21,668. Of those 23, “House of Lords” is repeated twice. Once that is taken out, there is virtually no policy on the Lords in the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto, yet they say that that is enough to change our constitution fundamentally. That is an absolute scandal. We have already had a referendum on their pet project of AV.

Of course, the Labour party is right in its manifesto: if we are to make the change, it can be made only if it is put to the British people. They have to be given a choice about that constitutional settlement, and we have to be realistic about the fact that it will completely change the relationship between the two Houses. It will mean a strong House of Lords that will exercise its power, and if one thinks that that is a good thing, one may wish to support Her Majesty’s Government. However, those who want this House to remain primary must oppose the change. The Government’s statement in their draft Bill that Lords will not interfere in our constituencies is fair old bunkum. Of course they will—they are politicians. It will give them a chance, in exactly the same way as we interfere in matters that rightly belong to the councils. I oppose the proposal as it stands.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Oral Answers to Questions

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

There is a world of difference between allowing patients greater choice and ensuring that there is diversity in how the best health care is provided to patients, and any sell-off of the NHS to bargain-basement bidders, which we have ruled out. There will be no privatisation of that kind whatever under this Government’s plans.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I wonder whether the Deputy Prime Minister has noticed that if proportional representation is used for a reformed House of Lords, the Liberal Democrats will almost always hold the balance of power in the other place. Does he intend to make being Deputy Prime Minister a job for life?

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, in a House of Lords without any elections of any description whatever, no party has an overall majority in any event, so a balance of power in a reformed House of Lords is no different from the status quo.