Princess Royal Hospital Telford

Debate between Jackie Doyle-Price and Mark Pritchard

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

It is a matter for reflection that this has been going on for four years, which generates considerable uncertainty. Clearly we should reflect on that, to ensure that the process becomes more efficient. Equally, it takes time to have those debates. I know that the particular issues under consideration here are quite difficult to grapple with. The important thing is that the local NHS is seen to be leading the debate and not allowing anyone else to fill that vacuum when there are decisions to be taken.

My hon. Friend the Member for Telford invited me to make some comments. Obviously there are limits, but perhaps I could set out the process, so that we can put in context exactly where we are now. As I mentioned, all service changes will be based on the fact that they deliver real outcomes for patients and will be taken forward in consultation with the local community. Ultimately, the most important factor is that this is what is best for the health service in the area, driven by clinical leadership. Again, it really should be the local NHS leading this debate, and not local authorities filling the vacuum.

The issues that my hon. Friend raised affect not only her and my hon. Friends the Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), but also service users in Wales. As she alluded to, it has now been four years, so everyone knows that change is in the air. Until the vacuum is filled, there will continue to be uncertainty. I expect the CCG to bring forward a consultation, to have an open discussion as soon as it can. I urge everyone to participate fully in the consultation and I encourage my hon. Friend the Member for Telford to lead that debate. Where there are issues that she is concerned about, she should challenge the local NHS leadership, and where there are things that she welcomes, she should highlight them.

The proposed service changes should meet four key tests: they should have support from GP commissioners, be based on clinical evidence, demonstrate public and patient engagement, and consider patient choice. Until those four criteria can be met, no decision can be taken.

[Mark Pritchard]

On the clinical evidence points, there was a so-called independent review, which the two clinical commissioning groups—Shropshire and Telford and Wrekin—and the NHS hospital trust commissioned. KPMG undertook that review. How independent it was and how knowledgeable KPMG, headquartered here in London, is of Shropshire’s health system is questionable, but I will just ask the Minister this. On clinical evidence, does she agree with me that if the demographics show that the younger part of Shropshire county is in Telford, it would not make sense to relocate the new—two-year-old—£30 million women and children’s unit from Telford to Shrewsbury, where there is an older, or elder, population?

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

Of course everybody wants to be able to access health services as close as possible to where they live, and my hon. Friend’s points about demographics are sensible. However, it is also important that we build critical centres of excellence. Where everything is together in one place, people can get better care. Wherever these services are ultimately located, there is a strong case for the children’s unit to be by strong A&E services, but obviously that needs to be tackled as part of the debate. My hon. Friend questions whether the KPMG study was objective. These are really serious questions that he should put to the local NHS leadership when we get into open consultation. I know he is looking for comfort from me, but I am not best placed to make the decision sitting in Whitehall.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Pritchard]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again; she is being very generous. Does she agree, though, in terms of transparency and openness and the fact that the public purse will have paid for the KPMG report, and given the seriousness of the issues, that that report should be published in full, in its entirety, for the public to see, in particular the Shropshire Star, which has done an excellent job in holding the local authority’s feet to the fire, to use one councillor’s term, on some of its most outrageous claims about this process?

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

It surprises me that the report is not in the public domain, according to what my hon. Friend has just said, if it is informing the approach that is being taken. I tend to take the view that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and if things are not done in an open and transparent way, the conditions are created for exactly the kind of speculation and scaremongering that we have been talking about. Having said that, I reiterate that the consultation has not yet started. It is very important that when the consultation does start, the CCG makes extremely clear the basis on which it is going forward with the proposals that it chooses.

I do not need to advise my hon. Friends of exactly what we are talking about. Clearly, they know more about their local healthcare situation than I do, and it is clear that local NHS leaders have to address significant challenges in bringing forward the entirety of their proposals as they affect the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital and the Princess Royal Hospital in Telford. I understand that they are 18 miles apart. In some areas of the country, that might not seem far at all, but when we are dealing with communities that have very separate identities, they could be oceans apart. That is another reason why we need to be very clear in our dialogue with those communities about why we are bringing forward the conclusions that we are.

Clearly, at a time when there is no money, things that it would be nice to have are not possible. It would be nice to duplicate services in both locations, but frankly that is not a luxury open to us at this stage in the economy, so where there is duplication of services, where we could bring them together and make a better service as a result, we should explore that. It is up to the local clinical leadership—there is a clear task and challenge for them—to demonstrate that whatever they bring forward will deliver better outcomes for patients. When it comes to winning over public hearts and minds, the public will not get away from the fact that services are being moved away from them. Automatically, there is a diminution of service in their mind, but bringing services together can often make a better service. We can see, with patient outcomes in particular circumstances, where that has been achieved. I therefore encourage the CCG to bring forward as much evidence as possible in making its case.

Of course, we all understand that whenever the consultation takes place, after four years of quite feverish speculation on some parts, people will be nervous. I encourage all my hon. Friends to continue this debate in public and with Ministers, so that we can reassure the public that we have their best interests and those of patients at heart with whatever decision is taken. As I have said, the more transparent and open the debate is, the better. Perhaps between them, my hon. Friends can lead the CCG to have those public discussions, away from the council, away from organised intimidation at public meetings, which will not lead to the best outcomes for patients at all. I have witnessed this myself. The left is very good at organising mobs at public meetings, but the last thing we want is for local clinical leaders to bring forward proposals in the best interests of serving the community and then be intimidated, by those who shout loudest, into changing their views because they are faced by a herd.