Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill

Ian Swales Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Raynsford]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point, and I concur.

The Institution of Civil Engineers, the professional body for engineers and those involved in the provision of infrastructure, makes a telling point in its submission to us about the Bill. It says that the approval criteria that the Government have set out for considering schemes state clearly that

“any project must be nationally significant before it can receive financial support.”

It would clearly be a total waste of time if people read the fine print of the Bill and believed that it was appropriate for the kind of project to which the right hon. Gentleman and I were referring and submitted one, simply for it to be rejected because it did not have national significance. That is why the amendment has been tabled—to help the Government by bringing a degree of clarity and focus to the Bill.

I entirely concur with the objective of helping schemes that are stalled and ought to be able to proceed, but they should only be schemes of national significance. That is the purpose of my amendments, to which I hope the Government will be sympathetic.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

I shall speak briefly against amendment 1, which would have the effect of limiting the definition of infrastructure to the items listed. That could mean that key elements of economic infrastructure would be omitted. We have already heard reference to broadband and flood defences, but I am thinking in particular of the installation of carbon capture and storage networks, such as the one proposed for Teesside, which already has strong private sector support.

Those networks will be vital for future economic growth and that type of investment must be included in the scope of the Bill. I would welcome clarity on that from the Minister and I ask him to consider adding such schemes to the list. Having said that, I accept the excellent inputs from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt) on the need to limit how the Bill is implemented.

As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I certainly do not want any suspension of proper process, judgment or value-for-money assessment of any project that comes through under the Bill.

[Hugh Bayley]

When we discussed the Bill on Second Reading on 17 September, I had no idea that just one week later the River Ouse was going to rise 5 metres higher than its normal summer level and put York once again in the national and international news as a flood-prone city. I am glad to say that the emergency was well managed by the local authority, the Environment Agency, Yorkshire Water and the police, who led the silver and gold command, of course.

The consequence was far less dramatic than 12 years ago, when the Ouse rose just 10 cm higher—about 4 inches, for those who are metrically challenged. On that occasion, some 230 homes were inundated. Some homes were affected this time, but the damage was much lower, in part as a consequence of investment in flood defences and other flood alleviation schemes.

Hard flood defences have been built in the city of York to provide better protection for houses flooded during the previous high flood 12 years ago. Other alleviation measures have also been taken upstream. There has been funding to encourage farmers to build ponds—in one case, a major dam that stores millions of gallons of water during a high-flood event—and to plant more trees to slow the run-off so that the peak height is a few inches lower than it would otherwise be. I have asked the Environment Agency to calculate whether those measures made the 4 inches of difference between this occasion and 12 years ago, so preventing hundreds of thousands of pounds’ worth of damage to hundreds of houses and commercial businesses, as happened then.

I should stress that throughout the flood, 99.9% of York was open for business. It gets a bad press whenever there is a flood because journalists are lazy and know that a pub called the King’s Arms in York floods four or five times a year, and it is as easy as pie to get a picture of somebody in waders pulling pints behind a bar. When people see such photos, they need to realise that York is up and running and not closed for business.

On Second Reading, I posed the question of whether the list of types of infrastructure in the Bill would include funding, or support through loan guarantees, for flood defence schemes. The Economic Secretary took advice between hearing my remarks and replying to the debate. He said:

“I am advised that there is no reason for them”—

that is, flood defences—

“to be excluded, and we envisage their being part of the infrastructure that is being considered.”—[Official Report, 17 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 747.]

Since the Economic Secretary has had an opportunity to consider the matter a little further in the weeks since Second Reading and was notified by an amendment that I tabled, which has not been selected, that I would raise this issue, will he go slightly further and reassure me and other hon. Members representing constituencies with considerable flood risk that it is not that there is no reason for such schemes to be excluded, but that they will be open for consideration if it is deemed appropriate?

I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), whose knowledge about these matters is enormous and whose judgment I respect—I normally consult him about matters of housing, planning or infrastructure—that I would be concerned if we limited the schemes to those of national significance. Some of the infrastructure that badly needs investment is important and will help to generate economic growth. Flood alleviation schemes, for instance, can support economic output by keeping businesses open and avoiding diverting expenditure to repairs when the funding could instead go to a future profitable investment that would generate a return.

I caution against limiting investment to matters of national significance. My right hon. Friend makes a telling point about the school door, but many schemes of local or regional, rather than national, significance ought to be candidates for consideration for the funds provided in the Bill. When the Minister responds, I hope that he will say something further about flooding and give an assurance that although we ought to be supporting schemes of national significance with this fund, we should not limit it to supporting such schemes and it should be open for the support of other schemes of local or regional importance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sajid Javid]

If I have not been clear enough, I apologise to my hon. Friend. Perhaps I could write to him later in order to be clearer, or even have a meeting with him on this particular issue.

I will respond to amendments 1 and 2 together. The right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) was right to point out that many Members seem to have misunderstood his proposal to add the words “national significance”, by linking them to a definition of housing. I get his point. It is fair to take both amendments together, because he is considering the overall definition of infrastructure and trying to make it more inclusive. The amendments are, however, unnecessary and I will explain why. The Bill’s purpose is to allow the Treasury, or the Secretary of State with the Treasury’s consent, to incur expenditure in support of the various infrastructure projects. Members will be aware that “infrastructure” has a plain English meaning, namely the physical facilities and installations needed for the functioning of a community or a society, such as transportation and communication systems, water and energy facilities, and public institutions, including housing, hospitals, schools and universities.

[Ian Swales]

The Minister has already confirmed that flood defences would fall under the auspices of the Bill. Will he confirm that that would also be true of a carbon capture and storage infrastructure network?

[Sajid Javid]

I can confirm that CCS facilities are not excluded from the definition of infrastructure. If a project sponsor wanted to suggest such a project, it would be duly considered by the team under the scheme’s terms.

Finally, it would be difficult to define “national significance” and that may take away from the overall intention of the Bill. Perhaps I do not need to make that point because it was made very well by the hon. Member for York Central. I therefore ask the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich not to press his two amendments.