Arms Exports and Arms Control

Debate between Ian Murray and John Stanley

Thursday 21st November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

This is the first time that you have been in the Chair, Mr Pritchard, during my shadow ministerial career, and I am grateful for your chairmanship. I thank the Committees on Arms Export Controls for producing what is the most comprehensive report that I have seen from any Select Committee. I asked the Vote Office for all three volumes, but I was told that it would be difficult to provide them. I am glad that they were not provided, because of the depth of the issue, which is incredibly important and complicated, and often incredibly controversial. The Committees should be commended for the way in which they deal with the issues.

I have the utmost respect for the Chair of the Committees, the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), and his work. The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) was right to suggest that the sole voice that does so much on this issue is that of the Chair of the Committees, and that we should all thank him, not just for chairing the Committees and producing reports, but for holding Governments of all shades to account on this important and often controversial issue.

UK Governments, whatever their colour, have had in place a robust system of export controls that has led the world. It dates back to the first arms export controls in 1939 and was consolidated at the start of the century with the Export Control Act 2002. Since 2004, we have had quarterly reporting to provide greater scrutiny. The success of the system is highlighted by the way in which it operates and the fact that the Committees can look at an issue in great detail. We do not want export licences to be revoked, but the fact that they are shows that the system is robust. It is not perfect and unimprovable, but it is robust.

I was struck by the opening comments from the Committees’ Chair when he referred to globalisation of the arms trade and the widespread consequences of that, which requires greater controls and countries working together. The international scale of the arms trade treaty and the extension of scrutiny are welcome.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the increased number of revocations of arms export licences applied for, and that is not entirely surprising, given the continued instability in north Africa, the middle east and many other countries mentioned in the report. It is worth reflecting for a few moments on the risk profile of authoritarian regimes and how the UK Government and other Governments who issue export licences do so when we do not know what will happen.

The hon. Member for Beckenham has great experience, which we are lucky to have in this place, of what can happen when licences are granted because operational matters require the use of the goods on the battlefield or for defence. There may be consequences many years later in more peaceful times or when regimes change, and we are seeing that in Libya and Egypt. The risk profile must be examined, and it will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response to risk profiling, not only in countries that we are concerned about now, but in those that we have been concerned about in the past.

We should note that since our last debate, which I believe was at the end of 2011, the first international arms trade treaty has been adopted. It is right to congratulate the Government, particularly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, on ensuring that it came to fruition. It dates back to the previous Government and it is right that there is cross-party consensus. Hundreds of my constituents wrote to me about this, and they and I never thought that that treaty would come to fruition. We are all delighted that it has.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) was right to highlight the treaty’s implementation. The signatures may be dry, but that does not mean that the job is done. In fact, it has just started. I was struck by her comments about ensuring that there is implementation in other countries and that the UK can support other regimes to ensure that the treaty is implemented. It would be useful to know the Minister’s thoughts about how that can be supported in other countries.

I shall make only one slightly partisan point, because there is generally cross-party consensus. Concern was raised by the Committees’ Chair about how some of the good work may be undermined by the Government’s role and how it operates in other countries. We have seen that in Sri Lanka, and the right hon. Gentleman mentioned Libya and other parts of north Africa. It is all about perception. When the Prime Minister takes trade missions to areas that have just had the significant upheaval of regime change and so on, the perception may be that arms sales are at the top of the agenda. I am not sure that the Government should operate in that way. It may be only perception, but the Government should work hard to ensure that that perception is not carried through in practice. The Sri Lankans called the Prime Minister “God”, and that should probably debar any exports.

There has been a lot of discussion about Syria and the controversial decision in January to grant two export licences. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North was right to highlight the fact that the goods were never delivered, but two licences were granted to a regime that, at that time, was collapsing in a region that was in turmoil following the Arab spring. The decision-making process that led to that conclusion must be highlighted in detail.

The Committees highlight such issues—they did so on Syria in their report—and the Government have had to respond. The Syrian issue highlights something that I said earlier about the risk profile. If there were a different risk profile for some of these regimes, perhaps the granting of those two licences would have been justified. In the black and white of the legislation—the black and white of the process, as the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said—it was probably, on balance, the right decision, but a question remains about whether that right decision should have been achieved, given the risk profile.

I share the Committees’ disappointment at the Government’s response to dual uses. There must be greater transparency. Just calling something “dual use” is not enough, and that goes back to perception. We should be completely transparent about what an export licence is being granted for, and that there may be different uses depending on who is operating the equipment. In Syria, that was chemicals.

A licence may be granted in good faith for chemicals to be transferred to a regime under the export licensing criteria, but they could fall into the wrong hands, and that feeds right back to the risk profile and how we deal with dual use. I would like further clarity from the Minister on the Government’s thoughts about dual use. The Joint Intelligence Committee concluded in a letter that the Syrians had used chemical weapons and that it was clear that the Assad Government had used them. There are still issues about whether those export licences should have been granted and whether an error might have been made.

There has been a lot of talk this afternoon about other countries, including Bahrain. I was pleased that the Committees looked at the 27 countries of concern and reached conclusions. I was staggered to see the £12 billion figure. I thought that I had read it incorrectly and that there should have been a decimal point somewhere, so that it was £12 million with a few pence on the end. It is a staggering amount in export licences to countries with human rights issues. The Committees were right to highlight that and to challenge the Government on their criteria for ensuring that that does not happen again.

My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) and the hon. Member for Beckenham mentioned brass plating. Although brass plating in a UK context works well, this is about brass plating across international communities, where companies that have brass plating in this country operate against the rules that would apply here when operating overseas. That must be looked at clearly, but it again highlights the globalisation of the issue. International co-operation is required to deal with some of the bigger issues on brass plating, and the Chair of the Committees is absolutely right to highlight that issues relating to the globalisation of the agenda are greater than ever.

I briefly turn to the points made on systems for spying and other such technology. I say flippantly that I notice that we have not sold anything to the Americans—they seem to be able to do quite well themselves—but a significant problem would not have passed the Committees by. In particular, there was £8 billion of such spending under export licences to Israel and £600 million to China; I think that was the figure given by the Chair of the Committees. We have to deal with that kind of issue and see whether the export goods are being used for the purpose that they should be used for. I would like the Minister to dig down further into that and address whether there is widespread use of mass surveillance technologies against populations when perhaps there should not be and whether we should look at tightening up such licensing.

Egypt and export licensing was discussed by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North. Export licensing to Egypt seems to be a bit of a hokey-cokey, and that highlights the problem of not knowing what is happening in the future and with the risk profile. Licences are granted, then have to be revoked, then some are re-granted and others revoked. There seems to be a problem about whether we should be licensing any exports to Egypt while it is experiencing its current operational and regime difficulties. At the risk of repeating myself, it looks as though, again, that all feeds back into risk, and that was rightly highlighted by the Committees as being part of the problem.

On top of the issues that I have raised, I shall finish by asking the Minister two specific questions, the first of which is on paragraph 46, which has been referred to a lot, and the Chair of the Committees highlighted the ambiguity in relation to that paragraph. The Foreign Secretary was pretty categorical in what he said to the Committees. However, it seems that the common position that is referred to can be used by omitting certain phrases from terminology. Many countries are highlighted by the report, including Iran, Argentina, China and various others, but if we refer back to paragraph 46, that is where the ambiguity lies. We need clarity on that issue. I realise that the Government’s action on the consolidated criteria in paragraph 46 was to wait until the European common position had been developed in 2012 and until the arms trade treaty had come into force and been implemented. However, it would be useful to get some time scales from the Minister on whether that position will be resolved.

[Sir John Stanley]

The hon. Gentleman has raised, as I did in my opening remarks, an absolutely key point. It may help hon. Members if I set out exactly why we say that the Government are quoting selectively. The key document, in annex 8 of volume 2 of the report, is the consolidated criteria written answer given by the then Minister of State at the Foreign Office, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). In the written answer, two references are made to policy in relation to arms exports and internal repression. The one that the Government keep referring to is stated in criterion two—the so-called “clear risk” test—but the Government continue to ignore the crucial paragraph that immediately precedes the list of criteria in the right hon. Gentleman’s written answer.

If I give the sentence in full, the hon. Gentleman will see the point that I am making:

“An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing so are outweighed by the need to comply with the UK’s international obligations and commitments, by concern that the goods might be used for internal repression or international aggression, by the risks to regional stability or by other considerations as described in these criteria.”—[Official Report, 26 October 0200; Vol. 355, c. 199-203W.]

There it is in black and white. That is the policy statement, and that is why there are two parts of the statement that the Foreign Secretary made. Sadly, the Government—in particular, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—insist on only referring to the criterion two statement. I hope that is helpful.