Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill

Debate between Ian Murray and Gordon Birtwistle

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

That is the way the tax system works. People are allocated their national insurance and tax thresholds on the basis of when they work on a monthly basis. It can be aggregated over the year only if they are in permanent employment through pay-as-you-earn and the national insurance contributions that are made. In Committee, we had the strange scenario of Government Back Benchers saying that it does not matter what the tax take is because the aggregate would be the same if 100,000 people were working on zero-hours contracts than if the same number of hours were being worked by those in permanent employment. That is primary school economics, because the analysis does not work.

The Government have to reflect on the fact that while unemployment is falling, and has fallen by a substantial amount over the past 12 months, tax take, including income tax take, is exactly the same as it was the year before. That means that people are not being paid properly for the work that they are doing, that they are under-employed, or that they are in part-time jobs or on zero-hours contracts. So while they may not be an unemployment statistic, they are certainly not contributing to the economy.

[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

Does the shadow Minister accept that the tax take is possibly down by a lot because of the increased allowances that people now get before they start paying tax? Surely the fact that people are not paying as much and keeping more of their salary would affect tax take.

[Ian Murray]

The hon. Gentleman misses the point. If he was in his place earlier—I have no reason to doubt that he was not; I just did not notice when he came in—he would have heard me say that HMRC had predicted a significant increase in tax take having already factored in the increase to £10,000 in the taxable allowance. Even taking that into account, it was projecting a significant increase in tax take, yet it has been flat. HMRC had accounted for the change in the personal allowance threshold and for the fact that unemployment is falling. Taking all those things into consideration, it projected that it should be getting substantially higher tax revenues, but it is not. That tells us something about the kind of employment market that this Government want to create.

Children with Autism (Education)

Debate between Ian Murray and Gordon Birtwistle

Thursday 17th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Gordon Birtwistle]

I am grateful for that intervention. My only aim is that we all work with the Government and education authorities to come to a conclusion on how to address early diagnosis and to deliver for these young people—who in the main have amazing talents—educational facilities that will take them on, help them succeed and be superb members of the community, and enable them to live normal lives. My argument is that we are not doing that, and the hon. Gentleman obviously agrees with me.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

The education system in Scotland is devolved, but, as has been said, this is a problem across the country, because the condition is prevalent across the country. Does he agree that this is not just about local authorities and that there should be proper training for the teaching profession? There is also a body of work to be done on teaching schoolchildren to treat those in their classes who have autism slightly differently and to be a more aware of their condition so that they can thrive in a mainstream environment.

[Gordon Birtwistle]

Absolutely. I pretty much agree with everything that has been said and most people seem to agree with what I am saying. My argument is that, although the hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) and for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) have all made amazing suggestions, we do not act on them. While we sit here and talk, why are thousands of young people and families across the country suffering? I have met some of those families and they are at the edge of life. It should not have to be like that. Proper facilities should be provided.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Ian Murray and Gordon Birtwistle

Monday 17th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gordon Birtwistle]

The hon. Lady will be anxious to hear the Minister’s answer to that question, which our amendments put to him. We have tabled the amendments to tease the answers out of him—if she had proposed an amendment, she would have received an answer to her question, but she has obviously merely turned up today to try to stir things up.

Amendment 41 will, I hope, clear this question up. I hope the Minister can give us an answer, and if he does not we will have to ask other questions at another time. My main concern is about an applicant who is sent for a job by the jobcentre and finds out only when they arrive that it is a share-ownership job. Will their jobseeker’s allowance be affected if they refuse it? I am reasonably confident that it will not.

This will only happen in small niche companies. I do not think that we have the right to stand in the way of people who wish to get involved in such businesses, to get on, to take a gamble or to be involved in a company that will grow, so that their £2,000-worth of shares grows with it. There might well be a second Google somewhere, but I do not want to tell people that although they might have wanted to make those decisions, I did not want to give them the opportunity. That is why I support these proposals.

[Ian Murray]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, as he is being incredibly generous in doing so. Does he not accept that in his example from the 1960s—50 years ago—taking extra money in return for rights was completely voluntary? He could have refused that, but many of the examples we are hearing involve cases that will not be voluntary, as people might be coerced to give up their rights for worthless shares.

[Gordon Birtwistle]

I accept that in my case it was voluntary. I could have taken holiday pay, but I would rather have had the four shillings an hour more, which is very little today but was a lot of money in those days, to save up. I am reasonably confident that what I will hear from the Minister will lead me to believe that the proposal is voluntary enough. I am sure that it is voluntary and what I have read in the Bill does not suggest that people will be forced. I think the proposal is okay, but it is a small idea for niche businesses. Major companies will not be offering the option, only small companies, and we do not have the right to stand in the way of people’s freedom to take it up if they wish.