Scotland Bill

Debate between Ian Murray and Eilidh Whiteford

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has asked that question so early. Had he been listening to events in the Scottish Parliament last week he would know that Nicola Sturgeon has made clear commitments to mitigate the impact—

[Ian Murray]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

Let me answer this question.

Nicola Sturgeon has made a clear commitment to mitigate the impact of the tax credit changes, but—like the Prime Minister—she is in the dark about the exact proposals. George seems to be still writing them on the back of an envelope. We are clear that it will not be possible to quantify them for two and a half weeks yet.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

I am delighted that the hon. Lady has given way, but she did not quite answer the question put to her by my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn). Is the hon. Lady committing tonight to restore all the losses from the pernicious tax credit cuts by this Tory Government? Her party voted against that in the Scottish Parliament last week.

[Dr Whiteford]

I really wish that the shadow Secretary of State had voted against the tax credit proposals when they came before this House on 20 July, because that would have killed them dead. Labour Members did not, however, and that is why we are back where we are. Nicola Sturgeon has made it crystal clear that she intends to bring forward costed, credible plans once the autumn statement has been made.

For low-paid working families, tax credits are an essential source of income. They put food on the table and shoes on the feet of children. They heat homes during winter. By the end of this Parliament, the Government’s proposed tax credit cuts would take £3.2 billion out of the Scottish economy from the pockets of the poorest families. That will undermine economic recovery. The austerity measures already enacted are set to push 100,000 more children in Scotland into poverty by 2020. Under the tax credit measures, 350,000 Scottish youngsters are set to lose out further. No wonder the Tories have abandoned any attempt at measuring child poverty.

There is a broad consensus in Scotland that cutting tax credits is the wrong thing to do. Even the leader of the Tory party in Scotland has called for a rethink and said that it is wrong for low-paid workers to lose out. It is recognised that the proposals will disincentivise work, hit children who are already disadvantaged and punish those in lower paid jobs.

The House of Lords put a proper spanner in the works of the proposals the other week, when it forced the Government back to the drawing board on their tax credit plans. Like millions of families across the UK who are facing uncertainty, we are all in a degree of limbo at the moment. We will have to wait until the autumn statement to learn what the Government intend to bring forward to make their plans more palatable to their own Back Benchers, who seem rather thin on the ground tonight.

We in the SNP have been very consistent in our opposition to tax credit changes. We have made the case at every single opportunity for alternatives to regressive austerity cuts. We will continue to fight tax credits tooth and nail in this House to force the Government into a climbdown. I hope we can rely on the support of other Opposition parties to stand firm, too. Labour abstained on 20 July, when we debated the general principles of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill that ushered in these proposals. The Government’s new clause 34, tabled last Wednesday, represents some progress. I am grateful for that, because it acknowledges that there was a veto and it manages to deal with that to some extent. New clause 34 would partially mitigate the impact of the tax credit cuts, but our new clause 18 is much stronger. It would fully devolve control of our tax credits to the Scottish Parliament, including eligibility thresholds and tapers. Government new clause 34 will give the Scottish Parliament the power to top up benefits. That is fine as far as it goes, but it will be no help whatever to those people who have lost their tax credits entirely as a consequence of the changes. If someone is not in receipt of a benefit, it cannot be topped up.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Ian Murray and Eilidh Whiteford

Tuesday 30th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

I will not give way just at the moment, because I think we have talked quite enough about Greece. I want to make a couple of substantive points about the issues that were raised, however.

Whatever differences Scotland and Greece have, what we have in common, apart from our patron saint, is the fact that people in Scotland will feel great sympathy for their fellow European citizens in Greece and will have a sense of solidarity about the level of deprivation they are having to undergo. My hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who is not in the Chamber at the moment, made the important point that the real morality tale from the Greek situation that is relevant to our discussions today is that austerity does not work and that we need the power to create alternatives to it.

The other salutary tale we heard this afternoon came from the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) who, with his usual eloquence, drew on his experiences in Northern Ireland to warn of the difficulties ahead if we fail to legislate clearly. He also warned of the dangers of what has been termed “karaoke legislation” in Northern Ireland, in which people have powers but not the power to enforce those powers.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) made a powerful speech that highlighted some of the real differences between the challenges we face with welfare and pensions in Scotland and those in other parts of the UK, pointing out the low life expectancy and the poor value that Scottish pensioners get. Indeed, we have some of the lowest pensions in Europe and Scottish pensioners end up about £10,000 each worse off because of our pension arrangements. My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) drew attention to the issues with the work allowance, which is a really good example of what we might do with these powers to improve the support we give to lower paid workers.

Above all, we need to talk about the veto. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), who is quickly becoming one of the stars of this Parliament, set out how new clauses 45 and 46 would enable constructive working between the UK and Scottish Governments. That means not just fine words about constructive working but fine working.

To move on to those who spoke from the Front Benches, I welcome the support from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for our lead amendment and for amendment 119. I listened very carefully to the Secretary of State’s conclusion to the debate. I fully accept that there are constructive relationships through the joint ministerial working group and many other parts of the Scottish and UK Governments, but when there are genuine differences of opinion and of ideological direction as well as different policies and different circumstances, we need the mechanisms and the legislation that enable us to deal with them effectively. That is what we still do not see on the face of the Bill.

The problem is that the Bill, in its current form, does not cut the mustard. The Secretary of State’s position on this could probably be summed up by the old saying, “They’re aw oot o’ step but oor Jock.” There is a consensus in Scotland, among all the other Scottish MPs, among MSPs, including MSPs from the Secretary of State’s own party, and among civil society that the veto needs to be taken out of the Bill. I urge the Secretary of State to listen. Part of the problem in Scotland for too long has been that people have not listened, but the voices of the people of Scotland will not be silenced. If the Secretary of State thinks that these issues will go away, I can tell him that they will not. We have heard salutary lessons about why we need to have the legislation pinned down and secure.

Earlier in the debate, I should also have stated my intention to move new clauses 39 and 40 and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Edinburgh South for flagging up that omission. We will press—

[Ian Murray]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

I am just summing up. We will press new clause 39 to a vote later, and in the meantime we also want to vote on amendment 118.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

I hope the bonus ball this week is not 32, otherwise we will be in trouble.

My hon. Friend is right: it is about local authorities working together. There is nothing wrong with saying that the Scottish Parliament has been a centralist Government—that is what happened as a result of the policies that were pursued. That is a legitimate choice for a Government to make. All we are suggesting is that perhaps some of the work programmes that would be best delivered by local authorities are sent to them. I know that my own local authority, Edinburgh, runs several highly successful programmes, such as the JET programme for young people and other programmes to get disabled people and others into work, and we should trust them to do that.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Opportunities for All programme, which was mentioned earlier, is a good example of a policy area in which the Scottish Government are working closely with local authorities to deliver services and opportunities for young people? Similarly, the Scottish welfare fund is another good example of a scheme administered and delivered by local authorities. When the hon. Gentleman talks about a centralist Government, he needs to remember that 90% of ring-fenced funding has been devolved to local authorities by the Scottish Government. He might want to take a look at Wales, where the Labour Government seem to want to abolish local authorities all together.

[Ian Murray]

I did not want to turn this into a political argument: I merely wanted to point out that work programmes are best delivered by local authorities. If the Welsh Government have made the decision that they are best delivered in a different way, it is up to them. The hon. Lady highlights, however, that devolution across the UK provides an array of ways to deliver services, and I hope that the Scottish Government take note of this debate and consider whether we should have double devolution. The principle of subsidiarity across the European Union and the UK, which my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) promoted in his new clause, should sit happily and firmly with the Scottish Government and their relationship with local government.

Local government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities have said clearly that local authorities across Scotland feel that they have been strangled, and we need to address that important point.

National Minimum Wage

Debate between Ian Murray and Eilidh Whiteford

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian Murray]

I am afraid I do not have time to give way, although I see that when the nationalists are provoked, they tend to respond.

I want to comment on some of the contributions from both sides of the House to today’s debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) was right to say that the existence of the national minimum wage is a statement about the kind of country we are. She was also 100% right to highlight the real-life impact of low pay on individuals and families, and particularly on women with child care responsibilities, who are disproportionately affected by employers who do not abide by national minimum wage legislation.

I was quite taken by the remarks of the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). He was right to be contrite, and to apologise for his party’s previous stance on the national minimum wage. Unfortunately, however, as recently as yesterday, the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) wrote in the Evening Standard that any increase in the national minimum wage would be a

“massive jobs tax on business”.

He also described it as “oversold”, and said that this

“policy cross-dressing is more likely to confuse than impress voters”.

Perhaps the hon. Member for Harlow is a lone voice on the Conservative Benches when it comes to defending the national minimum wage in the trenches. That would be a shame.

My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) said that the very low-paid could not even comprehend the pay packets of the most wealthy in this country. He summed up the debate well when he said that the minimum wage was for the many and not for the few. He also reminded us that the National Minimum Wage Bill Committee sat for an unprecedented 70 hours. Anyone here who has served on Bill Committees over the past four years will realise that to do so for 70 hours involves quite an undertaking. That just shows the then Government’s commitment to getting the legislation through.

I am always delighted to hear the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) speak in the Chamber, although I never agree with a word that he says. Given that he is a Liberal Democrat, I thought he might have been a little more contrite on this subject. Let us give credit where it is due, however. He did say that he had always supported the national minimum wage and always paid it. If any of the hon. Gentleman’s employees or former employees want to get in touch to dispel that rumour, we would be willing to hear from them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) reminded the House of the statistic that the UK has the fifth worst levels of poverty pay in the OECD. We should be doing something about that. He also mentioned the impact of low pay on the welfare budget, and the fact that since 2010 the national minimum wage has fallen behind to the tune of 50p an hour.

The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), always an entertaining speaker in this House, talked about how increasing wages for the lowest paid was false and fake. I do not think the pay of the poorest in this society is false and fake, but I did enjoy his restatement of the Tories’ trickle-down policy of economics in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) talked passionately about the need for effective enforcement and rightly said that it would take political direction to bring in the living wage. The Business Secretary did say that the Low Pay Commission should be free of political interference, but bringing in the national minimum wage and, indeed, the living wage is a political direction, and we should all be striving for that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) was one of the hon. Members who stayed in this House all night trying to get the national minimum wage legislation through. Let us not underestimate the former right hon. and hon. Members, and those who still sit in this House, who made such effort to get this legislation through, despite the vehement opposition of many on the Opposition Benches.

My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) has done some wonderful work in his constituency since he was elected in that wonderful by-election victory, and he gave numerous examples of where workers are paid less than the national minimum wage because of unlawful deductions. He mentioned the increasing problem of the personal accident insurance that is being taken off employees; it is costing employers pennies but they are taking pounds from employees. We have to make sure that there is enforcement on such issues.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) is a passionate advocate for the living wage and rightly gave credit to the councils that are paying it. My local council in Edinburgh is paying above the living wage and has done since 2011, and we should encourage more councils and employers to do more. When I am at this Dispatch Box I always find that my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) speaks last, or second last, and is curtailed in his contributions. I would like to hear an awful lot more of him speaking in this Chamber, because he deserves significant congratulations on the campaign he has run against national minimum wage exploitation; we heard some of the issues relating to the shipping industry from him.

Last, but certainly not least, my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) talked about why enforcement fines should go back into the enforcement industry, to make sure that we can enforce the system better and that exploitation is rooted out.

We have had a robust debate on the national minimum wage, in which I have been struck by the Government’s restatement of their policies. Indeed, they have re-announced their policy on naming and shaming more times than they have actually used it, which is surprising. We need more action from the Government on these issues, rather than the restating of policies. When the Prime Minister, no less, announced the increase in fines back in November, I am sure that the Government had no intention of rushing them through—until the Opposition called this debate. But that is not new in this House, and this Opposition will continue to press the Government to get results.

Labour will also bring in Make Work Pay contracts to encourage people to pay the living wage, and we have instigated a review led by Alan Buckle, the former deputy chairman of KPMG. He will look in detail at how to restore the value of the minimum wage; how to ensure that sectors that can afford to pay more do so; and how we can promote better the living wage. In November, the Leader of the Opposition also outlined how a future Labour Government will provide tax incentives for employers that sign up to pay the living wage—employers, employees, trade unions, the Government and the Treasury all working together to share the benefits of lifting pay for the lowest paid in this country. Those benefits can be shared for all; I think that that is the right way to go.

Labour created the national minimum wage, despite strong opposition, and it is Labour that will strengthen it for all the low-paid people around our country, moving together towards the shared goal of making work pay for all. It is Labour that will take proper sanctions against those who do not pay it. That is only fair to those who work hard, do the right thing and deserve to be paid properly. That is what we are trying to do today, and I hope that the Government will support our motion.

Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Debate between Ian Murray and Eilidh Whiteford

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

My right hon. Friend makes a timely point given the debate that took place in the House earlier in the week.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady is making a wonderful speech on this dreadful bedroom tax. Perhaps she will also consider another group involved in caring for children—parents who have split up. Access agreements made by the court for two people in my constituency are based on the fact that they have an extra bedroom. The Government are essentially saying to them, “Find the money for the extra bedroom or lose access to your children.”

[Dr Whiteford]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. Families going through a break-up often face some of the most complex and difficult situations for people to resolve, and we know that the cost of children growing up without a parent can be considerable both in social terms and because of the impact on the individual who is separated from a parent. This legislation will make it more difficult for non-resident parents to stay in touch and maintain proper contact with their children, and that is reprehensible.