Banking in Scotland

Debate between Ian Davidson and Mary Macleod

Thursday 14th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Davidson]

The first is certainly true. We have been told that money is available but is not being taken up, and money is being paid back faster than it is going out. We have not adequately explored the point at which decisions are made, not made, or knocked between front office and back office, and my hon. Friend gives us a valuable pointer. Having met representatives from three industries that are significant and important to the welfare of the Scottish economy, and having heard the same story from them all, it seems that something is still not right in the relationship between banking and its customers in Scotland.

When we met the CBI representatives, we did not quiz them as directly as we might have done because it was an informal meeting, but the same sort of message was coming back. I know from meeting various development groups in my local area, including construction companies, that people are concerned about the lack of co-operation that they receive from the banks. That is one area of the report where further work is required, and I hope that the Minister will be suitably co-operative on that.

I will now look at how banks deal with individual customers. We all deal with the public and we are aware from our activities and surgeries that there is a fair number of rascals, chancers, villains and incompetents in most constituencies, except my own. The banks are not necessarily dealing with paragons of virtue on every occasion and there are people who borrow irresponsibly. However, the volume of complaints present at the time of our report seemed far greater than could reasonably be expected. The stories that we have heard since from Citizens Advice, and the experiences in my surgery and those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern), suggest that the banks continue to be less than completely understanding and helpful when dealing with customers in financial difficulty.

A number of examples of bad practice are quoted in the report, and it is perhaps appropriate to mention them so that they are on the record. In its evidence to us, Citizens Advice highlighted:

“Unfair overdraft charges; banks being more aggressive in their behaviour towards debtors; banks encouraging debtors to take out more products as part of their repayment; banks demanding higher repayments from clients in order to repay debt quicker;.”

Banks are also using the “right of set off” to transfer cash around people’s accounts. None of those are examples of particularly good practice. Many of us were worried by the way that banks were utilising call centres to a far greater extent than we believed was justifiable. In many cases, call centres were ringing up customers several times a day, and they often seemed to be in complete ignorance of arrangements that had been made with another section of the bank. Those call centres were often based abroad and perhaps there were difficulties in communication. The people who rang up and talked to the customer seemed to have no flexibility or power to negotiate or discuss matters, but simply reiterated that they wanted money back. Hon. Members will understand how stressful that was to people who, in many cases, were already highly stressed because of their financial position.

To some extent, the assurances that we had from the banks reminded me of Bart Simpson, who, when he was accused of anything, would say, “It wasn’t me, nobody saw me and you can’t prove it.” The banks tended to say, “We never did that, it wasn’t as bad as you say and we don’t do it now.” Clearly, the banks are now at some pains to distance themselves from some practices that have been going on, but I do not think that they have abandoned them entirely. We have been told that banks now show greater forbearance before taking people through the repossession process, and feedback I have received suggests that that is true. The Government are probably in a better position to clarify the figures. That is certainly a matter that we want to pursue.

We continue to receive feedback from Citizens Advice and other organisations suggesting that cases continue where one arm of a bank strikes a deal with a customer who is in financial difficulties, but another section continues to pursue the customer, irrespective of the deal done; and irrespective of the bank having been notified that somebody wants to use Citizens Advice or another intermediary as a representative, it continues to pursue the customer directly in order to harass them into making additional payments. There must be a degree of responsibility on the part of the banks. We understand that the banks need to try to recover their money, and, particularly when many of them are state-owned and state-financed to a great extent, we do not want to put them in a position where people can escape their obligations, but a balance must be struck. Paragraph 113 of the report states:

“We conclude that banks continue to use aggressive tactics towards customers who have fallen into debt.”,

We should all be concerned about that. We have been told by a number of bank staff that some of the processes and procedures that I have described continue. That is concerning.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

Let me state for the record that the Royal Bank of Scotland used to be a client of mine.

I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if customers and constituents are having problems with lending or other general banking issues, they should be encouraged to bring their problems to us as Members of Parliament, so that we can raise concerns directly with the banks. We could give the banks specific examples of where their processes and procedures are going wrong, so that they can deal with them directly.

[Mr Davidson]

The hon. Lady is in a good position if she can say that the Royal Bank of Scotland was a client of hers. I used to be a client of the Royal Bank of Scotland. Not many of us have it the other way round. She is right—people should feel able to come to their MPs and ask them to raise issues on their behalf, but I fear that in some locations, the Members involved would run the risk of being swamped.

In my early days as an MP I was involved in establishing a money advice centre and a citizens advice bureau, simply because my office could not cope with the volume of complaints it received. We do not necessarily need to meet those involved in such cases directly in order to get information about them. I regularly get information from advice and information centres, which aggregate. There is always a problem for individual MPs when dealing with casework in this and a number of other areas, because one is never certain of the extent to which the problem presented is typical and shared by a lot of people, or whether it is due to a persistent constituent who wants to pursue the matter as far as their MP. Although I accept that it would be immensely helpful if MPs had more information, seeing people individually is not the sole way of getting it. However, I congratulate the hon. Lady on having had the Royal Bank of Scotland as a client. I hope that she treated it better than some of its clients have been treated by that bank.

I have spoken enough about Citizens Advice; in the accompanying papers, people can read an update from that organisation which indicates that not everything is flowing as well as it might. I conclude on this aspect by pointing out that there are always two elements to a relationship between a group such as Citizens Advice and an organisation such as a bank. First, it is important that the banks are willing to listen, and I think that they are getting better at that. However, they are not necessarily better at the second element, which is acting on what they have heard. Citizens Advice tells us that it has greater access to the banks, and the banks tell us that they have more meetings, but it is not entirely clear that the banks act on the information they receive in the way that we would want.

I want to make two other points. The first relates to the work force. It is important to stress that the vast majority of people working for the banks are not on megabucks—they are not enormously well paid or taking huge risks with other people’s money. The Committee had figures indicating that bank employees’ average pay was about £28,000 at Lloyds bank and £30,500 at the Royal Bank of Scotland, with the UK average being about £25,000. It would therefore be unfair and unreasonable to say that everyone working for a bank should be the subject of the same opprobrium and be held responsible for the activities of those at the very top. We want to make sure that bank employees at the lower levels are not held responsible or accountable and do not suffer the pain as a result of lay-offs and the like. We welcome the fact that the dialogue between the banks and the trade unions on a number of these issues has improved recently. As we take this matter forward, however, we will want to hear from the trade unions about what happens subsequently.

I also want to touch on the question of bonuses, which is related to the issue of staff but not properly part of the Committee’s remit, so I will allude to it only in passing. It was clear from the evidence that we took that the offence caused to many of those affected by the economic crisis by the paying of enormous bank bonuses was disproportionate. The issue was very high up the list of people’s priorities, even though people were not necessarily affected by it and notwithstanding the fact that those bonuses might not come to a lot if they were spread across all the bank’s clients. People simply saw the bonuses as immensely offensive and unfair, and the Committee’s view when the report was drawn up was that if we are all in this together, the Government—whichever Government—should be involved in ensuring that bonuses are curbed as much as possible. I very much welcome the fact that the previous Government dealt with that by introducing a levy and that the present Government have indicated that they intend to do something similar. We look forward to seeing the details.

As I said at the beginning, I hope that the report and this debate are not the end of the process. Given the significance of the banks to economic life in Scotland, I hope that the Committee will continue to keep these matters under review and that the Government will continue to work with the Scottish Government and others to ensure that there is an appropriate and constructive regulatory environment. So much economic development in Scotland depends on our getting our banking right. I hope that Committee members who are here today will be able to add to the points that I have made. I also hope that the Government will endorse the report and its conclusions, as they have already, and agree that most of the conclusions should be taken forward actively.