IMF

Debate between Ian Davidson and George Osborne

Monday 23rd April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

No, there are no such instances. Every single country that has lent money to the IMF has got its money back.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

First, will the Chancellor withdraw the outrageous slur that all Labour Back Benchers were in favour of Britain joining the euro? Secondly, surely his distinction between currencies and countries is mere sophistry. The reality is that this is about bailing out countries whose difficulties have been caused, or at least exacerbated, by being in the euro. When does he expect to have to bail out the eurozone again? When will the eurozone’s next request for money come?

[Mr Osborne]

I talked about loyal Labour Back Benchers and would never apply such an outrageous slur to the hon. Gentleman, whereas it is certainly applicable to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). The distinction is not sophistry, because an IMF contribution, were there ever to be one, to a eurozone bail-out fund, would basically put that money into a eurozone pot and then the eurozone would decide how it was spent. If there is a country programme for a specific country in the eurozone, the IMF team would turn up, wherever it happens to be, impose its own conditions and do its own analysis, and that is fundamentally different. The logic of the hon. Gentleman’s question is that the IMF would never help a eurozone country, which would lead to the eurozone countries leaving the IMF, and we would then be fundamentally undermining one of the most important institutions the world has seen in the past 60 years.

Sovereign Grant Bill

Debate between Ian Davidson and George Osborne

Thursday 14th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Mr Osborne]

Let me just answer this point before giving way again.

Although I do not want to speak for the Comptroller and Auditor General or the PAC, I suspect that if they wanted to look at the funding arrangements between the MOD and the royal family, they would be able to do so under the provisions of this Bill.

[Mr Osborne]

Let me give way to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) and then I will answer both hon. Gentlemen’s points.

[Mr Davidson]

The Chancellor mentioned his view that income from the Duchy of Cornwall and the Duchy of Lancaster is private money of the royal family. Surely he recognises that in the previous Parliament the Public Accounts Committee established quite clearly that that is not the case—that this is not the private property of the monarch or her family but a trust established by the nation in order to fund the various members of the royal family. That is different from saying that it is the private property of the royal family themselves.

[Mr Osborne]

I should make it clear that it is an established principle that the income from that property, which is held in trust, is for the private purposes of the royal family.

In response to the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), I point out that there are of course some areas of royal financing—I will come on to say something about royal protection—where it is very difficult to be public about some of the sums of money involved. The Bill—I hope that we will soon get into the meat of it—is a mechanism for helping to continue the current level of spending. As I say, it is perfectly within the rights of the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, if they want to, to look at payments from the Ministry of Defence, but that has to be a matter for them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Osborne]

It is understood that there are certain pieces of property, such as Buckingham palace, Windsor castle and the Crown Estate, that belong to the institution of the monarchy, and certain pieces of property and assets that are the private property and assets of the Windsor family. That is a well-established precedent and has been recognised by the House for many decades. Nothing in the Bill changes that.

[Mr Davidson]

Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer give way on that point?

[Mr Osborne]

I will give way on that point and then make some progress on clause 1.

[Mr Davidson]

I am very grateful. The Chancellor is undoubtedly correct that some pieces of property are tied in with the institution of the monarchy, such as Buckingham palace, but the coastline of Scotland and the undersea surface are not intimately connected with the monarchy and have never, as far as I am aware, been visited by the monarchy. In those circumstances, I am not clear why the two categories are being conflated. Surely it would be better, if the Chancellor wants a method that is tied to growth in the economy, if it were simply tied to, say, gross domestic product. If GDP went down the Queen and the monarchy would suffer the same as the rest of us, and if it went up, they would benefit in line with the rest of us. That would be better than tying the fund to a measure that I envisage will make it grow at a far greater rate than the economy as a whole.

[Mr Osborne]

First, I do not want to speak for the Queen, but I think she is quite familiar with the Scottish coastline.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Osborne]

I will get back to the hon. Gentleman specifically on that point—I do not have specific information on Marlborough house with me at the moment—but on his broader point, for the first time, we will allow the National Audit Office to crawl over the arrangements that he describes.

I was going to go on to explain that some senior members of the Ministry of Defence and our military live in properties that are rented from the Crown Estate at below the market rate. The properties are within extremely secure zones, and it would not be possible to rent them to virtually anyone else. That arrangement suits the MOD, because it gets properties—not very many—at below the market rate, and equally, it suits the royal estates, in that they can rent out properties that they would not be able to rent out otherwise.

Let me talk about those sums. As I have pointed out, the average over the past five years is £34 million, which is much less than 20 years ago, when it was £49 million. In 2013-14—the first year in which the new sovereign grant mechanism will apply—the level will be determined by the profits in 2011-12, as I said earlier. We do not know precisely what those profits will be, because we are in the middle of the financial year, but the recently published Crown Estate annual report for last year showed profits of £231 million, and the Crown Estate confirms that that is pretty much what it is expecting in profits for 2011-12. The result of all that—this is the key point for the House—is that the sovereign grant in 2013-14 would be £34 million, which is in line with the average for the past five years. I would not say that that is a coincidence, because we have partly designed the mechanism to ensure that that has happened.

If projections for the Crown Estate are correct over the rest of this Parliament, we should see a real-terms cut of up to 9% in the funding for the official duties of the sovereign in that period.

[Mr Davidson]

The Chancellor will be aware, from discussions on the Scotland Bill, of a proposal for part of the Crown Estate to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, or handed to local authorities, community groups and so on. What would happen to the Crown Estate and the money going to the royalty if that proposal were passed?

[Mr Osborne]

That is not something that the Government are proposing today. If we were to propose it, we would of course address the impact of such a decision on the royal finances. I am assuming that even under such arrangements, the Queen would remain the Queen of Scots. I believe that most of us are happy with the current arrangements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Davidson]

No, I want to proceed because we are short of time.

I am seeking clarification from the Chancellor, who, I remember, was on the Public Accounts Committee when he was a young whippersnapper—I have often wondered what happened to him since. Will the National Audit Office, the interventions of which I will welcome, also be able to look at all elements of royal involvement? In particular, can it look at the royal art collection, about which there were serious discussions and disputes in the past? That would seem to be covered by what he has said, but it is not immediately clear.

Is the Crown Estate the right body to take into account when determining the monarch’s income? Those of us on the Public Accounts Committee who examined the Duchy of Cornwall’s accounts were absolutely clear that the Duke of Cornwall was manipulating the money involved, by playing a major role in determining the amounts of expenditure and income, thereby determining how much money came, or was available, to him as an individual.

Quite clearly, the Crown Estate could be leant on by the monarchy to make decisions on expenditure and income in the short term to affect the amount of grant that the royal family receive. The grant would then be on, as it were, a golden ratchet—a bit like EU expenditure, it would always go up, and never down. There is clearly scope for abuse in those circumstances. Will the Chancellor clarify those points?

Will the Chancellor also take into account the fact that there is due to be a windfall from wind and wave power? Will he assure the Committee that all of that will be taken into account when the review takes place in due course?

[Mr George Osborne]

I shall deal briefly—because time is short—with the points raised. I should say first, however, that I am grateful to the Committee and the Opposition Front-Bench team for the general support they have given to clause 1 and indeed the whole Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) raised the key question: how do we create a mechanism that preserves the dignity of the monarchy while ensuring that the House is accountable for the expenditure of public money? As I said in my opening remarks, there is the question of whether the money provided is enough or too much. I said that we do not want a cut-price monarch or a lavish monarchy. As a general guide, I have looked at how much the monarchy has spent over the past five years. On average, £34 million of public money has been given per year through various forms of grant and money drawn from a reserve built up using public money. I have said that that is not a bad guide for the future and that 15% of Crown Estate revenue will provide that amount over the rest of the Parliament. In 2016, we will review whether that is the right amount.

Financial Assistance (Ireland)

Debate between Ian Davidson and George Osborne

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

I thank my hon. Friend for his support, and the answer to his question is yes.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Chancellor be a little more clear about whether he is ruling out providing financial support in future to Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy or any other country in the eurozone? Yes or no?