Football Governance Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Ian Byrne and Rachel Hopkins

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate on an important Bill. I would like clarification on a few points with regard to schedule 5, particularly—following the excellent remarks made by the shadow Minister, with which I wholeheartedly agree—paragraph 7(4), which states:

“Before publishing a code of practice or any alterations to the code, the IFR must consult…the Football Association, and…other such persons as appear to the IFR to be representative of persons likely to be affected by the code.”

Can I seek assurances from the Minister that fans and fans’ representative groups will be included as people who are likely to be affected by the code? They will take a deep interest in the corporate governance of their clubs, which is why we are here with this piece of legislation. Similarly, I would like to press for clarifications on reporting on equality and diversity and inclusion matters, which are a really important aspect of good corporate governance. Once again, I add my support to the remarks made by the shadow Minister.

[Ian Byrne]

I wish to support the excellent remarks by the shadow Minister, who gave a very comprehensive overview of why we need amendments to the Bill. There is a real worry, as I have outlined, that the clubs will seek to dilute the power of the supporter’s voice by filling the boards full of stooges, shall we say. We need some sort of system to ensure that boards are appointed through a democratic and independent process. Supporters trusts are a ready-made option. There are over 130 of them in the football world. They are democratic, independent organisations that have the trust of the wider supporter base, mainly. It would be foolish not to utilise that expertise and the system that is already in place.

If a club has not got a supporters trust we need to have some sort of oversight to ensure there are independent fan voices holding clubs to account, which will be a crucial part of the independent football regulator. We have got to ensure that those boards are fit for purpose and, as I said, not diluted by clubs that want to disempower supporters and supporter voices.

Building Safety Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Ian Byrne and Rachel Hopkins

Tuesday 14th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Hopkins]

Q The new regulator will have to co-operate with fire and rescue authorities and local authorities or the private sector. Do you have any comments on those relationships?

Mr Wrack: I think this will become clearer as the Bill is implemented. There is an obvious point for fire and rescue services around what is meant by the obligation to co-operate with the regulator. Again, fire and rescue services have been subject to unprecedented reductions in staffing numbers over the past decade. That will raise questions about resources when it comes to their ability to co-operate with the requests of the regulator. In the impact assessment, there are suggestions of additional funding for fire and rescue services for that function; we would question how those figures have been drawn up and whether they are adequate.

Under the proposals, if, because of resource implications, a fire and rescue service could not provide assistance, the regulator has the ability to go to another fire and rescue service—or, failing that, to the private sector. We object to the role of private sector providers in that. If we have a problem with resources in the appropriate public service, then those resources should be provided.

[Ian Byrne]

Q It is good to see you, Matt. Is height the best measure of risk and, if so, is the threshold in the Bill appropriate?

Mr Wrack: Picking up on a point made in the previous session, we find the idea of a differential regime based on height somewhat illogical. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it would make sense to have a single system that is understandable to everyone, a single set of accountable people, and a single mechanism for making complaints and addressing problems.

There clearly is an issue around height in relation to building safety. As we put in our written submission, we do not agree with the 18-metre cut-off. We and others have said that if there is to be a height measure, a more logical one would be 11 metres. There are clearly differences between the fire risks in a traditional two-storey house and those in a purpose-built block of flats, where there are specific challenges. Some challenges are general across all forms of purpose-built blocks of flats; some of them apply at particular heights.

Clearly, there are additional challenges once you get to very tall buildings. They range from the ability of firefighters to fight a fire and rescue people to the importance of the internal building safety measures, such as the provision of dry rising mains, fire lifts and so on. All those things will be affected by issues such as the height of the building. As I think the National Fire Chiefs Council has said, it is a complicated issue because there are other factors, such as what has been done to the building and whether the building has been altered from its original design and construction. Lots of things need to be considered. Height in itself can be a bit arbitrary, and in our view the wrong height measure has been chosen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachel Hopkins]

Q I have questions about whether the Bill provides adequate means of redress for residents who want to challenge elements of the building safety charge. Is the provision requiring payment of that charge within 28 days reasonable?

Eric Leenders: Yes, and I think there are also some protections for leaseholders where the amount of remediation exceeds £250. That is welcome. The 28 days is potentially challenging—I am thinking of the staff in our organisation paid on a monthly 31-day cycle—so there could be a little more time for individuals to pay. Salaried individuals in particular are predominantly likely to look in the Bill for support. Increasing that timeline might be helpful.

[Ian Byrne]

Q Eric, given the scale of potential mortgage defaults because of the debts being unfairly loaded on to leaseholders, what would that outcome mean to the health of the housing market?

Eric Leenders: That is quite a difficult question to answer. The first point to make is that the housing stock is of the order of 28 million to 30 million properties, and only about 9 million have mortgages; you could perhaps add another couple of million for buy-to-let properties, so about a third of the overall housing stock would be affected. The composition of the housing stock is about much more than the most at-risk properties. What the Bill looks to address, based on the input from the fire experts, is a risk-based approach that would potentially look to address higher risk properties above 18 metres—there are probably about 1,400 or 1,500 of those properties in the UK. The impact on the overall market might be relatively modest, but the chief point is that for individual homeowners and those that have mortgages—those constituents—the impact is significant and is more than financial. It also has an emotional consequence as well.

Building Safety Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Ian Byrne and Rachel Hopkins

Tuesday 14th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

Q This question is directed more to Andrew, and it is about residents having the ability to challenge the building safety charge. Is the Bill adequate if they want to make such a challenge?

Andrew Bulmer: The building safety charge is problematic. The fact that payment can be demanded within only 28 days will make it difficult for a leaseholder to investigate and mount a challenge. You should not challenge until you have sought further understanding. Then, if you are not happy with the information that you have, you need to mount a challenge, but 28 days is not long, so there is a problem with that.

The building safety charge itself is a flawed concept and we would like to see it gone. Running a separate service charge regime means that there will be additional tasks, which means additional costs, and it will be the leaseholders that end up paying for that. Introducing a new regime also introduces a lawyers’ charter. The existing service charge regime is decades old. For many decades we have found ourselves testing the meaning of words in different circumstances, and much of service charge law is case law. If we introduce a new regime, we restart the clock.

Also, we have an existing service charge regime, which I know is not perfect—far from it—but health and safety matters will be included in that, so we will be in a situation where the resident will receive two different bills: the building safety charge for health and safety, fire safety and structural, and then another bill for a whole service charge, which will include other health and safety works, as well as any remediation that the building safety charge regime has brought up. The consumer will be nothing but confused while paying for a more expansive and complex regime. What I would prefer to see in the Bill is the existing service charge regime finessed in a way that brings more standardisation and clarity to the consumer about what the Bill includes.

[Ian Byrne]

Q I will direct my question to Andrew first and then Councillor Jayne McCoy. What do you think of the responsibilities placed on the accountable persons? Is it reasonable to expect all accountable persons to be sufficiently knowledgeable to assume the responsibilities in the Bill?

Andrew Bulmer: If you have a professional third-party landlord, it would be reasonable; that is their job. If you are a lay director of an RMC and you are the principal accountable person, you may be a highly intelligent and thoughtful individual—perhaps a surgeon or the lead violinist at the London Philharmonic Orchestra—but you are not a property expert. It takes two to three years to qualify as an IRPM member just to level 4, and it is a complex thing. I do not see how the majority of lay directors will truly have the knowledge and competence to be able to discharge their responsibilities. They will be heavily dependent on advisers. If we are going to be democratic and empower our people to be masters of their own destiny, which I support, we need to make sure that they are protected. I would like to see a quality assurance regime for the building safety manager and for property managing agents, who will be the go-to people for recommendations and for all matters property. I would like to see them regulated.

Building Safety Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Ian Byrne and Rachel Hopkins

Thursday 9th September 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)]

I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

[Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)]

I am still a sitting councillor in Liverpool.