Loan Charge

Debate between Hywel Williams and Hannah Bardell

Thursday 18th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to agree with so many right hon. and hon. Members, which I must say is a novel experience for me. Looking at the history of this scandal, it reminds me of the time when many of our constituents were claiming working tax credits. Sometimes those credits were overpaid, and they would receive letters from the Revenue, which were standard letters but had individual clauses stitched together to give the semblance of having been personalised. One such sentence is etched on my memory. It goes like this:

“Even though we told you that your assessment was correct, it was not reasonable for you to believe so.”

[Laughter.]Thank you. This, though, is an extremely serious matter. As I thought about how I would approach the debate, I thought that I would tell the story of my constituent, Rob Cowen, who was a victim of the loan charge scandal. I do, however, speak today for other colleagues in Plaid Cymru, and particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who cannot be here, though she would wish to be.

While some people gained financially through the use of umbrella organisations and services, Rob Cowan was using the scheme on advice as a simple accounting service so that he could be paid legally and conveniently, as so many other people found. He had sought advice from accountants, who assured him that the product he was using was legal; only later did he find out that it was not.

Rob has suffered immensely since then. Back in 2011 when he was in his early 50s, he was considering winding down his business, changing his work pattern, moving from full-time to part-time work and enjoying the fruits of his work over many decades. He then started receiving communications from HMRC, informing him that he was liable to pay back thousands of pounds due to the loan charge. That forced him back into full-time work, but that aggravated a repetitive strain injury that he had developed over the course of his working life. Eventually, that led him to becoming disabled, so he could no longer work and make an income to pay back the money due under the loan charge.

At the age of 63, Rob found himself unable to work and unable to pay back the money that allegedly he owes, and he faces a very bleak future. He now has no savings and no ability to work. He cannot pay HMRC the money that it says he owes. He has suffered psychological and physical trauma from this ordeal, as have so many. To give just one example, which I am sorry to say is common, he told me recently that he was unable to switch on the heating during this very cold period. He cannot afford it, as so many people have found.

[Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for sharing that powerful example. I have constituents in my Livingston constituency who have suffered and who have come to see me. As the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg) spoke about the other scandals that we have faced and challenged in this place, I was reminded of the Primodos scandal, and the words of Baroness Cumberlege, “First do no harm”. It should be the duty of the Government of the day, and of this place, to first do no harm to our constituents. When harm is done and policies are wrong, as this one has been proven to be, surely it is the duty of Government and HMRC to take some responsibility, and not to put the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, my constituents and others through hell before they get the justice that they need. How many more folk need to die before this will be sorted out?

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Lady for that powerful point. It is an old saw, but justice delayed is justice denied, which is quite obviously the case in this matter.

My constituent also points to the stigma associated with what has happened to him, as other right hon. and hon. Members have pointed out. He feels that he is in the wrong; he is being made to feel that he did something wrong but he acted in good faith throughout, sought expert advice and followed the advice that he was given, because he had no intention of doing anything wrong. In contrast, as has been pointed out—I will finish on this point—the owners of the companies that ran these schemes have made considerable sums of money. Rob feels that he has been denied a fair hearing, while other people have got away with it.

As the hon. Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith) said, HMRC is judge, jury and executioner in its own case, which is obviously wrong. People are receiving retrospective punishments even though they acted in good faith. There must be justice for Rob Cowen and the other victims of these schemes and of HMRC’s behaviour. I join the calls on the Minister to act quickly.

Trade Bill

Debate between Hywel Williams and Hannah Bardell

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I shall not repeat the points that have already been made by other Members, including the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell), who made an excellent speech.

I shall begin my own brief speech by explaining why I think that turning our back on the economic institutions of Europe is an error. I shall then explain why I support the current stance of the two sitting devolved Administrations in denying the Bill a legislative consent motion. Finally, I shall refer to changes that should be made to the Bill to ensure that any future trade deals are based on the principles of fairness, clarity and reasonable representation. I hope to speak about those matters in more detail during the Bill’s later stages.

The free trade agreements that we have with countries as a beneficial consequence of our membership of the European customs union account for nearly £140 billion of UK trade. Wales is a trading and exporting economy, which has recently been in surplus, and that is extremely important to us. The Minister said earlier that he believed that the Bill would simply translate these highly effective deals into domestic legislation. That was a bit like the characterisation by the Secretary of State for International Trade of a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU which he said could be the “easiest in human history”. However, we just do not know. We have no guarantee, and common sense suggests that it might be otherwise. Getting equal or better terms for our trade outside the EU after Brexit is a bit of a punt, to say the least.

Furthermore, while we remain members of the EU, and possibly throughout the transition phase, our Government will be precluded from finalising any negotiations with third countries. If we are to grandfather agreements and continue with the status quo ante Brexit, we will be reliant on the co-operation and good will of the 50-plus nations with which we have existing deals. This is a £140 billion gamble to try to secure trade terms that we already have.

My second point concerns the power grab. The Government’s default position on Brexit legislation now seems to include clauses seeking to claw back the powers of the devolved Parliaments. We have seen that in, for instance, this afternoon’s U-turn. Clauses 1 to 4 and schedule 1 to the Bill do just that by giving Westminster the power to change devolved legislation without consultation and without the consent of the devolved Parliaments. As I have said in previous Brexit speeches, this is no longer the 1980s or the early 1990s, and it is certainly not the 1950s. The UK is not a two-party, one-Parliament state, latterly globally dominant. Things have changed, but the Government seem to be in denial—and up with this we will not put. That is why I support the decision of the two sitting devolved Administrations to reject the legislative consent motion.

However, I will not leave it at that. Plaid Cymru is a pragmatic, positive party. We are determined to secure the best deal that we can for our country, even in these dark times. The Bill would set us on a deeply concerning path. Ministers might barter away the advantages of our high-quality agricultural industry and aspects of the NHS, perhaps to secure a “genius” trade deal with Mr Trump. Our amendment would ensure that trade deals were at least based on those principles of clarity, fairness and representation.

For clarity, we would require proper impact assessments, geographically focused and published at the beginning and the end of any trade negotiations. They would outline the impact of any potential trade deal on Wales and the other countries of the UK, and they would empower the public and elected politicians by giving them the information that is necessary for the making of democratic, ground-level decisions.

[Hannah Bardell]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hywel Williams]

I am afraid that I have agreed not to take interventions.

For fairness, we propose parity of voting power. Any trade deal would require a ratification vote in all the UK’s Parliaments. That would be a genuine partnership. It is an unremarkable approach, which is common to European states and others throughout the world. For representation, as a first baby step, there must be Welsh, Scottish and Irish representation on the board of the new Trade Remedies Authority.

Let me end by saying this. I have been to a horse race only once in my life. Tempted to place a modest bet, I asked an experienced friend how I should judge the assembled nags for winning form. He drew me closer and says confidentially, “Count the legs. If there are four, you are in with a chance.” As far as I can see, the Bill has only three, and is stumbling away from the finishing line in any event. We in Plaid Cymru will not support it tonight.