Devolution of Justice: Wales

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to contribute, Mr Vickers. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) on securing the debate. It is unfortunate that we have such limited time, but I will try to canter through some of the key points that I want to make.

I approach this debate as an advocate for devolution and as the former Secretary of State who took the Wales Act 2017 through Parliament. It is hard to believe that in 2010 our inheritance from the last Labour Government was the legislative competence order system, whereby the Welsh Assembly had to ask permission to pass legislation in any particular area. It is worth remembering how far we have moved from the system between 2010 and today, when we have a full law-making Parliament in Cardiff Bay. I hope that sets out the context for my remarks.

During the development of the Wales Act 2017, it was clear that some were determined to devolve justice, irrespective of the evidence from within the profession that did not support that devolution. We agreed to disagree with the Welsh Government in the end, with the First Minister specifically saying that he would revisit the matter. The only conclusion I could draw was that the political elite wish to see the devolution of justice, rather than the issue being raised on the doorstep, or forming part of a campaign from those in the profession or our constituents, who really wish for genuine improvement in this area. That is not to say that improvements do not need to be made—they do—but there have not been calls for devolution of the issue, other than from the political elite.

I also note that the Commission on Justice in Wales was established by a devolved institution on a reserved policy matter. Imagine if the UK Government decided to have a commission on health or education in Wales—devolved policy areas—without there being equal and active engagement with the other party. That demonstrates that the political elite are driving this agenda, rather than this being something that is demanded.

The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd based her claim around genuine problems that need addressing. I am not denying that there are challenges in the system. We all remember the challenges in Wales—it could be said that they are even greater partly as a result of the intervention by the Welsh Government, who closed down the courts during covid when they were still functioning in England. That is an example where the Welsh Government have sought to influence justice in a negative way.

The right hon. Lady said that devolution of justice is a chance for Wales to have better outcomes. If I wanted to be flippant, I would point to the outcomes in health and education; sadly, our waiting times are longer, and our education outcomes certainly have not improved, as they have across England and Scotland in the past decade or more.

The key point I want to make in the limited time I have is about the importance of the industry that is the legal system operating between Wales and England. Extremely profitable large law firms based in Cardiff form part of an ecosystem that develops businesses, often from the City of London or other parts of the United Kingdom. Functions and professional legal expertise are provided in Cardiff, creating some of the most highly paid jobs in a desired legal profession, creating career opportunities and allowing people to move inside and outside Wales to develop their business model. Some of those firms have office spaces in the City of London and attract the business of the City, and the functions are then conducted in Cardiff. Devolving justice to the Welsh Government and to Wales would really undermine those business models. Those are the businesses that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd should talk to.

[Hywel Williams]

The right hon. Gentleman made the claim earlier that this is a matter of the elite calling for change, and then he makes an argument for elite lawyers in Cardiff.

[Alun Cairns]

I would like to see more elite lawyers in Cardiff, because raises gross value added and creates career opportunities for Welsh people, wherever they come from.

During the negotiations on the Bill that became the Wales Act 2017, I received representations from some of the most senior lawyers in England and Wales, who were very concerned about the agenda of devolving justice and the damage that would cause to the sector.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 26th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

How many Welsh exporting manufacturers are moving workers to the EU27 to set up front offices, distribution centres and so forth, and what help are the Government giving them to export Welsh jobs?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for providing me with the opportunity to highlight the Welsh economy’s export record. Exports are now at £17.7 billion—that is a 7.5% increase, which highlights how the Welsh economy is exporting strongly and at record levels.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 15th May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Given that the Wales Office has no exclusive responsibility for any of the 300-odd work streams associated with Brexit and that we have had 20 years of devolution under a Welsh Government who have legislative and taxation powers, can the Secretary of State give the House a necessarily brief definition of his role and function?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting question. Of course the cross-Government responsibilities in which the Wales Office is active and interested go far and wide. I happily point to the crossings and the Severn toll as one example. Wales is also the only part of the UK to have a city and growth deal in every area.

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that answer but, just for starters: electrification of the railway west of Cardiff, abandoned; electrification of the north Wales line, a pipe dream; the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, cancelled; the post-Brexit shared prosperity fund, handed to an England-only Department; and, as I said, the Wales Office has no exclusive Brexit responsibilities. Is not his function just to nod through Conservative policies, whatever the cost to Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman should be practical and realistic in what he calls for. He will be fully aware that electrification of the railway to Swansea offers no tangible benefits to passengers. He will also be aware that the Public Accounts Committee called for re-analysis of each section of the electrification, and it was on that basis that we came to the same outcome by delivering the most modern trains, which happen to be hybrid. Is he seeking to support a tidal lagoon that would be three times the cost of an alternative green provider?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office already has an agenda to take as many jobs as possible out of Whitehall and relocate them across the rest of the UK on an ongoing basis. Leaving the European Union will bring new responsibilities. I think there is an opportunity for my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I shall be seeking to play my part in ensuring that Wales benefits too.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

In respect of Welsh business preparation for Brexit, can the Secretary of State tell me how many of the hundreds of Government Brexit work streams have been allocated exclusively or primarily to the Wales Office?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Wales Office sits and acts right across the whole of Government, but my prime lead is with the Welsh Government. We have now ensured that they sit on the European Union Exit and Trade (Preparedness) Sub-Committee, and as I mentioned earlier, I only hope that they will similarly invite a UK Government representative to sit on their equivalent Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

13. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on Wales of the EU withdrawal agreement.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, before I answer the questions, may I say that I am sure the House will want to join me in paying tribute and respect to Assembly Member Steffan Lewis, who sadly died just over a week ago? He was a bright and dedicated politician who had an exceptional future in front of him, with so much to offer Wales. My prayers and thoughts are with his wife, Shona, and son, Celyn, at this most difficult time.

I can update the House that the UK air accidents investigation branch is working with the relevant rescue and transportation authorities in relation to Emiliano Sala and the pilot who went missing on Monday evening. I am sure that the whole House wishes to join me in hoping for a positive outcome.

The Government are working to identify the broadest possible consensus on a way forward so that we leave the European Union in a smooth and orderly manner. We are engaging with Members on both sides of the House and with representatives of business groups, civil society, trade unions and others.

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[Alun Cairns]

I would say to the hon. Gentleman that the best way of avoiding no deal is obviously to get a deal. It was interesting that the hon. Gentleman voted against the deal last week. We will continue to engage across the House and with the devolved Administrations, and we are optimistic that we will continue to make amendments to the document that will gain a deal with the European Union.

[Hywel Williams]

In an excellent briefing on the 9th, organised by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, on the effects of leaving the European Union on businesses in Northern Ireland, I was told the slightly unknown fact that 40% of Northern Ireland perishable food exports come through Holyhead. This fact was not known to the people I met then, and is perhaps not known to other Members of this House. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the impact of a no deal on the supply chains that sustain the exports of such foods through the port of Holyhead, and will he confirm what steps he is taking personally to mitigate that impact?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the port of Holyhead. It is the second busiest port in the UK during the summer months, but of course all year round it is pretty critical to the supply chain, particularly for foodstuffs that come from both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. A ports working group has been in place for quite some time—it involves the UK Government, the Welsh Government and the relevant UK Government agencies—to plan for a deal, and also to plan for no deal, as a responsible Government would do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 18th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Having seen the Welsh Guards in action in Afghanistan, I have nothing but admiration and respect for the work that they do. The additional support to help them embed and the important steps they are taking to support the ongoing work of the Afghan Government will be extremely important, and I pay tribute to them for the work that they do.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

11. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the roll-out of universal credit in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on a legislative consent motion for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I hold regular discussions with Welsh Ministers on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. At the end of November, my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State and I met the First Minister again as part of our ongoing bilateral discussions. Yesterday, Mark Drakeford and representatives of other devolved Administrations met at the Joint Ministerial Committee to consider further details.

[Hywel Williams]

I have asked the Secretary of State a number of times, both orally and in writing, what would happen if the National Assembly for Wales were to withhold its consent for the withdrawal Bill, and he has gone from looking hopelessly Panglossian to being unsure, evasive and even furtive. Will he now tell the House what would happen if the National Assembly for Wales withheld its consent for the Bill?

[Alun Cairns]

May I add to the hon. Gentleman’s descriptions by saying that I am optimistic? I am optimistic that our work with the Welsh Government will lead to a legislative consent motion. After all, we should be focusing on the outcomes that communities and businesses want while respecting the constitutional settlement of the United Kingdom. I am sure that he and I will want the best outcomes for businesses, and that is what we are focusing on.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I do not recognise the basis of the hon. Gentleman’s question. We want the freest, most open trading agreement, and it seems to me that the real investors, who are creating real jobs, are taking us towards our ambition. We have seen major investment by Nissan in Sunderland, major investment by Toyota in Derbyshire and major investment in my constituency by Aston Martin. That demonstrates their confidence in our vision as we leave the European Union.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

2. What recent assessment he has made of the effect on Wales’s trade with EU countries of the UK leaving the EU.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will recognise that there is a significant amount of common ground between the Welsh Government’s paper and the 12 principles that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has outlined. This Government are determined to deliver a deal that works for every part of the United Kingdom. We have already said that no decisions currently taken by the devolved Administrations will be removed from them and that we will use the return of powers from Europe to the United Kingdom to strengthen devolution and the Union of the United Kingdom.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Over 5,000 EU students study in Wales and over 1,300 EU academics teach and do research, greatly adding to our national wellbeing. The Welsh Government’s EU White Paper makes it clear that their position must be secured. Why will the Secretary of State’s Government not adopt that elementary piece of economic good sense?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and others have said that we want to seek the earliest agreement to secure the status of EU nationals living in the UK and of UK nationals living in the EU. It is not in our interests to undermine any one sector. We would like to press for an early agreement, but it takes two people to come to an agreement.

[Hywel Williams]

Today, on International Women’s Day, my constituent Shiromini Satkunarajah will be studying for her final exams in electrical engineering. She is likely to get a first in her field, in which there is a world shortage of qualified people, women in particular. Had this Government had their way, she would have been deported last week. How would her deportation have steadied the Chancellor’s dodgy post-Brexit spreadsheet?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Welsh produce, and Welsh lamb and beef in particular, is world leading, and there are great opportunities as we exit the European Union to explore and exploit new markets. Hybu Cig Cymru specifically recognised that £20 million could be brought to Wales from accessing the north American market. These are the ambitions that we want to have, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will of course put Britain first in any negotiations.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am not seeking a running commentary or any detailed negotiating information, but a special deal was cut for the car industry in the north-east. Did the Secretary of State seek a similar deal for the car industry in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not recognise the basis of the question. The automotive sector is exceptionally strong in Wales, partly as a result of the Nissan contract in Sunderland, for which many of the supplier companies are based in Wales. I also draw attention to the great success of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence in bringing Aston Martin to Wales. We should recognise and celebrate the fantastic success on that MOD base.

[Hywel Williams]

Up to 200,000 jobs in Wales depend on our membership of the European Union, the single market and the customs union. I am not going to go through every sector, but will the Secretary of State seek sectoral deals for important parts of the Welsh economy as we leave the European Union?

[Alun Cairns]

It is clear that we want to get the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom. We want to ensure that the market within the United Kingdom works effectively. After all, the most important market for Wales is the market from within the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman can take confidence from the fact that, on the back of this Government’s policy and success, Wales has been the fastest growing economy outside London since 2010.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend raises an important point. He recognises the strength of the automotive and aerospace sectors, and I would point to some significant major investments the UK has landed. We are all familiar with Nissan investment in Sunderland, but it is equally important to the Welsh economy—Calsonic Kansei in Llanelli is a supplier to Nissan in Sunderland. We want to maintain the most open market arrangements, and the confidence shown by Nissan demonstrates it understands the priority we are placing on that.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

This week Hybu Cig Cymru, the Farmers’ Union of Wales and NFU Cymru have all made the overwhelming case in favour of tariff-free access to the EU for our world-class Welsh red meat. What is the Minister doing to ensure the voice of agriculture is heard in government?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point and the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), was at the winter fair in Builth Wells yesterday in Llanelwedd where he met the FUW and the NFU. We are in close dialogue with the farming unions in Wales and across the whole of the UK. Clearly Welsh agriculture is an important part of the Welsh economy and of our export market, and we want to maintain the most open trading relationship possible in its interest.

[Hywel Williams]

Welsh agriculture is spectacularly successful in EU markets; 93% of our excellent Welsh beef and lamb exports go to EU countries. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure French, Italian, Spanish and German people continue to eat Welsh meat in the future?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I too want to ensure that those across the European Union and elsewhere have the opportunity to benefit from the excellent produce that comes from Wales, including Welsh beef and Welsh lamb. We want to be global leaders in free trade. We also want the most open trading relationship with Europe that we can possibly get, and that is our determination and focus in our negotiations.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

There were many campaigns for a Barnett floor but it was only this Government who delivered on that. On European funds, we have not yet concluded our negotiating position, but simply replacing what are currently EU funds with another source from Westminster misses the point: the EU referendum sent out a number of messages, and those areas that receive most EU funds were the areas, sadly, that voted most strongly to leave the EU. We need to look at models of regional aid in a different way.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The debate on our future in the EU was very badly informed. Will the Secretary of State convene an independent inquiry to identify, quantify and publish the losses, and indeed any benefits, to Wales from leaving the EU and the steps he can take, within his powers, to safeguard our national interest?

[Alun Cairns]

A European Union unit is being set up in Whitehall, which will consider all the implications for my right hon. Friend the next Prime Minister in order to form judgments and direct Government policy, but we must recognise that if any country can make a success of leaving the EU it is the United Kingdom, with its proud history as a global trading nation.

[Hywel Williams]

I did ask about the Secretary of State’s Department. Anyway, I am concerned about the loss of common agricultural policy and convergence funding, and of research moneys to universities, and about the lost opportunities for young people to live, work and study abroad. But also, being Welsh and European, I feel the closing of our horizons towards a parochial little Britainism. What more can he do to ensure the future of our Welsh cultural London bypass to the rest of our continent?

[Alun Cairns]

I am disappointed by the hon. Gentleman’s question. He will understand that I have a close working relationship with the Welsh Government and with the First Minister in particular. What is in Wales’s interest is in the United Kingdom’s interest, and I am determined to do everything possible to maintain that positive relationship as we negotiate to leave the European Union.

Wales Bill

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

The Secretary of State says with a flourish and extreme confidence that the list of reservations is sensible. If so, why is he so reticent about publishing his reasoning? He asserts, but he does not explain.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman will know that I am happy to continue open dialogues. As Secretary of State, that is the style I have sought to use, to build on that set by my predecessor. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will want to continue working in such an open and constructive way.

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[Hywel Williams]

I want to speak to amendments 74 to 80, 81 and 82, 151 and 154, which I tabled along with my hon. Friends.

I welcome clauses 22, 23 and 24, which confer competence on Welsh Ministers in relation to onshore petroleum licensing, including hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, about which the Welsh people care a great deal. If the people of Wales do not want fracking, our Government should be able to ensure that it does not happen. Given that the Welsh Government and the National Assembly as a whole voted unanimously against fracking in Wales, I hope that the Secretary of State will work with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that until the Bill is passed, the United Kingdom Government honour that unanimous opposition in Wales and no new licences are issued there. I hope that, at the end of the debate, either the Secretary of State or the Under-Secretary will give some indication that that will be the case.

I also welcome clause 26. Some time ago, I had a meeting with the traffic commissioner for Wales, who was based in Birmingham at the time. He was very unhappy about being traffic commissioner for Wales, and pointed out that not only did he work from Birmingham, but he lived in Derby, which is a considerable distance from Wales. Many years ago, the Welsh Affairs Committee called for the commissioner to be moved to Cardiff, and I am glad that the clause achieves a great deal more than that.

Amendments 74 and 75, and consequential amendments 76 to 80, would remove the 350 MW limit on the Welsh Government’s legislative competence in the field of energy. I would happily put a fiver on what is on the Under-Secretary of State’s notepad: my guess is that he intends to say that the limit was recommended by the Silk commission. I wish I had put that fiver down, because I see that the Under-Secretary is smiling.

Of course I accept that the Silk commission recommended the limit, but let us return for a moment to the purpose and the terms of the commission. It was set up by the coalition Government, with a Conservative Secretary of State for Wales. It consisted of one nominee from each of the four main parties at the time, including the Secretary of State’s and mine, along with various academic and other experts. It consulted widely and extensively with the political parties, civic society, academia and industry experts, as well as the public. Its two reports represented a consensus, reflecting not only the views of the political parties but, crucially, those of the public and of experts—that is, the views of civic society in general.

With that purpose in mind, the players in all four political parties had to compromise, and all four—including the Secretary of State’s party and mine—did so, in order to achieve a national consensus. That was a contrast with the St David’s day process, in which I played a minor part. At the time, the Secretary of State appeared to hand a veto to each party in respect of what it wished to reject. Labour used its veto to the full, which reflected the stance of the then shadow Secretary of State, as a self-confessed “proud Unionist”. It seemed to me that the veto extended to Whitehall Departments, in terms of which matters they wanted to reserve.

As was clear from my earlier intervention on the Secretary of State, I am still slightly unconvinced about this process—

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

I will gladly give way to him.

[Alun Cairns]

What example has there been of devolution to Wales in the past where the Secretary of State has really sought to bring about agreement throughout the House on a pragmatic, practical way forward, rather than bulldozing one particular model over another?

[Hywel Williams]

I was very glad to play a minor part in the St David’s day process, as was my colleague at the time, Elfyn Llwyd. I think there was a structural deficiency in that process, in that if individual parties wanted to veto a particular matter, they could do so—fine: that was what the process was about—but, to my mind at least, one party made rather a meal of that dispensation, and vetoed a great deal that could quite reasonably have been included. The criticism of the first draft of the Bill reflects that, but the current version is a great improvement, and I am happy to pay tribute to the Secretary of State and his predecessor for their achievement.

Some parties compromised on policing, and some on broadcasting. My party compromised on energy. We have always believed that Wales’s natural resources should be in the hands of the people of Wales, and that the people of Wales are best placed to make decisions about how best to put those resources to use. That is our historic stance. We have never believed in placing a limit on that principle, above which the people of Wales should no longer have a say. We never thought that that was a good idea, and never thought that it was necessary. However, we compromised, for the good of the Silk process and to ensure good order and progress. We agreed to the arbitrary limit of 350 MW in return for the support of others on policing and broadcasting.

The Secretary of State has chosen not to follow that consensual path, and to pick and choose from the Silk Commission’s recommendations which matters to accept and which to forgo. Indeed, he has chosen to ignore the majority of what Silk had to say. He cannot now reasonably defend that Westminster power grab and attack Plaid Cymru by claiming that he is only following the commission’s recommendations. We shall see what the Under-Secretary of State has to say about that one.

Clause 36 must be understood as it stands. Having voted to give Scotland complete control over its natural resources, with no limits, the Secretary of State is proposing to devolve energy in Wales only up to a limit of 350 MW, with anything above that threshold being reserved to Westminster. Why does he believe that Scottish natural resources should be in the hands of the people of Scotland, but Wales’s natural resources, above the limit, should be deemed to be the preserve of Westminster? Does he think that the people of Wales cannot be trusted with any energy projects above 350 MW? Do we suffer from some congenital infirmity in that respect? For that matter, why should it be 350 MW rather than 351, or 349? Perhaps the Under-Secretary of State will enlighten us. What factual evidence has he to justify that figure?

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) referred to the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon. It is proposed that the lagoon should be devolved to Wales, but that the proposed Cardiff and Colwyn Bay tidal lagoons, which are identical apart from scale, should be reserved to Westminster. What is the rhyme or reason for that? What practical reasons are there for such a distinction?

Let me give another practical example. In my constituency, there is a great capacity for hydro-electric power. The Dinorwig scheme, which has been mentioned, is a massive scheme that can power Manchester for five hours at the throw of a switch. It takes eight seconds for the turbines to start turning. It is an astonishing scheme, which I think is one of the great energy production secrets of Wales. I understand that the switch is thrown in Connah’s Quay and not in London, and that it controls not only Dinorwig but the Stwlan facility in Blaenau Ffestiniog, as well as Maentwrog. So here we have an astonishingly good scheme and the potential for several more, some of the same scale but also some smaller ones.

Wales Bill

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am not going to give way, because there are many technical amendments I need to cover and I want to make some progress.

I say to the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), who moved amendment 32, that he has made a persuasive argument that the Assembly processes would ensure that Welsh is treated equally anyway, without adding a prescriptive provision to the Government of Wales Act. I would like to give the matter more thought but undertake to return to it on Report. I therefore hope that he will consider withdrawing the amendment.

[Hywel Williams]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that response and will listen to the rest of his speech with interest. I will withdraw the amendment. There is a progression in the normalisation of a language such as Welsh, from a point where it has to be specified to one where it is assumed, which is where we are in the National Assembly. That is an important point to make.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point that demonstrates the maturity of the debate and the acceptance of the language.

Clause 8 also provides for the Counsel General or the Attorney General to be able to refer the question of whether a provision of an Assembly Bill relates to a protected matter to the Supreme Court for a decision. The Counsel General or the Attorney General may make such a reference to the Supreme Court at any time during a period of four weeks from either the Assembly rejecting the Assembly Bill or its being passed.

There is precedent for a requirement for a super-majority on matters of constitutional importance. Under the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Assembly vote that triggered the 2011 referendum on Assembly powers required two thirds of Assembly Members to vote in favour. The Government believe that the safeguards in the Bill are sensible and command broad support across Wales.

Supplementing clause 8, clause 9 amends requirements for the Assembly Standing Orders on Assembly Bill proceedings, to reflect the new processes required as a result of a reference to the Supreme Court. The clause provides for Assembly Bills to be reconsidered by the Assembly in the event that the Supreme Court rules against the Presiding Officer’s decision on whether the Bill relates to a protected subject matter. That is in line with procedures put in place for the Scottish Parliament in the Scotland Act 2016, which has been passed by both Houses.

Clause 10 relates to justice impact assessments, on which there was considerable debate. The UK Government and Welsh Government have a number of well-established processes for assessing the impact of legislation on matters ranging from regulation to equalities. Indeed, on Second Reading I discussed the fact that Assembly Bills are assessed against their likely impact on the Welsh language and on equalities. It is also important to recognise that, through the Treasury and a range of other Departments, Her Majesty’s Government issue guidance and requirements relating to expectations of how public spending will be conducted and how public interests will be guarded. That is the principle under which the justice impact assessment should be considered, rather than how it has been interpreted by many.

Within the UK Government, Departments bringing legislation forward to this House are required to assess its likely impact on the justice system. The importance of that assessment is self-evident: for legislation to be effective it must be enforceable. It is vital that that enforcement process is ready and resourced sufficiently to cope with new demands placed upon it.

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[Alun Cairns]

I remind my right hon. Friend that a similar number of people who pay income tax also pay council tax, and that many will be business owners who pay business rates.

Much reference has been made to the Welsh Conservative manifesto and I remind right hon. and hon. Members what it said. Our manifesto for Wales stated that a funding floor would be introduced in the expectation that the Welsh Government would hold a referendum. We have fulfilled our end of the bargain, having introduced a funding floor of 115%, as has been mentioned. That is the floor—if I may gently correct the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—and the spending level is currently higher. If the Welsh Government are not going to introduce a referendum—I do not think that any of us want one after the events of recent weeks—we will need to take steps, so I hope that the House will agree clause 16 as it stands.

Clauses 17 and 20 deal with the functions of Welsh Ministers and devolve important new powers to them. Clause 17 will insert new subsection 58A into the Government of Wales Act 2006, conferring common law-type powers on Welsh Ministers—the kinds of powers exercised by a natural person, such as the power to enter into contracts, make payments or set up companies. It is difficult to believe that Welsh Ministers do not already hold these powers, and it demonstrates how current legislation is out of date with modern thinking and concerns.

Clause 19 deals with the transfer of ministerial functions. The Bill provides for a clear separation between devolved and reserved powers, an important component in which is being clear about which so-called pre-commencement Minister of the Crown functions in devolved powers are to be exercised in the future. We intend to transfer to Welsh Ministers as many of these functions as we can. We will do so in a transfer of functions order made under section 58 of the Government of Wales Act and will bring forward a draft order during later stages of the Bill. Several other transfer of functions orders have been made under section 58 since the Assembly was established.

I turn now to amendment 11, tabled by Labour, which would place a requirement in the Bill for a so-called fiscal framework. I should underline that the precedent in Scotland was not for the inclusion of such a provision in legislation; instead, the UK and Scottish Governments negotiated an agreement. I would hope that a mature relationship has developed between the Welsh and UK Governments, and between the First Minister and me, in respect of how we conduct our affairs. Clearly, there is no way I want to see Wales in a detrimental position—that is the starting point of our negotiations—and I am optimistic that we can come to an agreement over the appropriate adjustments to the Welsh block. Holtham has made some recommendations that are a good starting point for those discussions. Few people believed we would ever get to the position of introducing a funding floor. I hope, therefore, that that funding floor of 115% might give people confidence.

I would like us to reach a position where the Welsh Government can grant a legislative consent motion. Under the model we followed in Scotland, a legislative consent motion came only after the fiscal framework was agreed. I would hope that, once we have reached an agreement on a fiscal framework and a Barnett adjustment, a legislative consent motion could then be used as proof and evidence. For that reason, the amendment proposed is unnecessary—appropriate structures are in place to allow for that mature discussion to take place.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

[Hywel Williams]

We have had a wide-ranging debate, including on issues not really to do with the lead amendment. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10

Introduction of Bills: justice impact assessment

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Wales Bill

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am happy to give that clarification. Matters of elections, which I will come to in further detail, will be devolved, subject to a two-thirds majority. That includes the franchise for the Assembly elections and the constituencies and a whole range of other areas. [Interruption.] I will happily respond to those points when I get to that part in my speech a little later.

I was guided by the principle of clarity because the new reserved powers model of devolution draws a well-defined boundary between what is reserved and what is devolved, clarifying who is responsible for what. It is also a major step in extending powers. It will end the squabbles over powers between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, enabling the Welsh Government to get on with the job of improving the economy, securing jobs and improving devolved public services.

The second principle is accountability. The Bill paves the way to introduce Welsh rates of income tax. It will make the Welsh Government accountable to people in Wales for raising more of the money they spend. This, again, is a major step in the Assembly’s maturity.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the Secretary of State concede that a third possible point of principle would be proper subsidiarity, and if so, does he believe this Bill meets that requirement?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, and I hope we can cover some of those points later in the debate, but, Madam Deputy Speaker, much will depend on what you determine and interpret as subsidiarity.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

The powers in the Bill will be limited to a capacity of 350 MW, as I have stated.

There can be no doubt as to the extent to which the Assembly has matured over the 17 years since it was established. That maturity is reflected in the development of the institution into a confident law-making legislature. In recognition of this, the Bill enshrines the Assembly and the Welsh Government as permanent parts of the United Kingdom’s constitutional fabric for the first time. It also makes a commitment that Parliament will not normally legislate on devolved matters without the Assembly’s consent.

[Hywel Williams]

The Secretary of State referred a moment ago to some of the new powers, but of course some powers are not going to be devolved. Could he explain the principle behind choosing which powers to devolve and which to retain? For example, why is water to be retained here while sewerage goes down to Cardiff?

[Alun Cairns]

I will talk about the devolution of powers relating to water a bit later on. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that an intergovernmental working group has been established and that it is considering the implications of the in-principle decision that has been taken on devolved water. I will happily comment in further detail when I reach that part of my speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I wish to make a little more progress, then I will happily give way to a number of colleagues.

The Bill devolves a range of further transport powers, enabling the Assembly to legislate on all aspects of Welsh roads. It will be able to decide what the speed limits should be on Welsh roads; the regime for traffic signs and pedestrian crossings on those roads; the regulation of taxi services; and the registration of bus services in Wales.

There will be further powers on the environment. The Assembly can decide whether and how fracking takes place in Wales, and Welsh Ministers will have a say on whether licences are granted for new coal mining operations. It is difficult to believe that, with all of the Wales Acts that have passed since 1997, the Welsh Assembly does not have the power to sanction a new coal mine; it needs approval from the UK Government.

[Hywel Williams]

I have intervened on the Secretary of State twice, and this will be the last time. On transport matters, what will the implications be for the transport commissioner for Wales, who, as I understand it, is currently located in Birmingham?

[Alun Cairns]

Discussions are ongoing between the Department for Transport, the Wales Office and the Welsh Government about the functions and role of the transport commissioner, who serves the west midlands as well as Wales.

Welsh Ministers’ powers over marine licensing and marine conservation in the inshore area are being extended to the Welsh offshore zone.

The Bill devolves powers over sewerage and, as we committed to in the St David’s day agreement, we will consider the views of the joint Government review on aligning the devolution boundary for water with the national boundary when it reports its findings in due course. That was a point raised by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr.

The Bill devolves a significant number of further powers, and I shall not go into detail on each this afternoon. The purpose of Second Reading is to consider the broad principles of the Bill before we move forward to the Committee stage. As I mentioned at the outset, the Bill devolves further powers that stem from the Smith commission. These include powers over equalities, the design of renewable incentives and the scrutiny of the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets. We are also giving the Assembly and Welsh Ministers a greater say in how the interests of Wales are represented within Ofcom. This is a strong package of further powers that moves Welsh devolution forward substantially and can be used to improve the lives of people in Wales if exercised thoughtfully by the Assembly and the Welsh Government.

I spoke about the Assembly coming of age, and the package of further powers for the Assembly truly gives form to that vision. Through this Bill, the Assembly will take control of its own affairs, including deciding arrangements for its own elections. It will be able to determine how its Members are elected, the number of Members, the constituencies and regions used in those elections and who is eligible to vote. As we promised in the St David’s day agreement, the Bill gives the Assembly full responsibility for deciding how it conducts its own affairs and regulates its own proceedings.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

After the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, the Prime Minister promised the people of Wales that just as the rights of Scottish voters will be “respected, reserved and enhanced”, so, too, would the rights of the Welsh voters. He promised that Wales would be “at the heart” of the devolution debate. Since then, the Wales Office has published a draft Wales Bill and now we have the Wales Bill proper, billed as the UK Government’s response to the cross-party Silk commission. The draft Bill failed to deliver on the recommendations of the Silk commission—a commission established by the Tories themselves. Its recommendations were supported by all four of Wales’s biggest political parties, including the Secretary of State’s own Welsh Tories. Plaid Cymru, civil society groups, and people in all parts of Wales had hoped that the re-drafted Wales Bill would return to the consensus of the Silk commission and would offer the people of Wales the devolution settlement that is ours as of right, one that is sustainable, ambitious and fair. Today, we are very far away from that wholly reasonable goal.

I freely acknowledge that, compared with the draft published last autumn, some progress has been made in making the Bill fit for purpose, but we still have a long way to go before this Bill will become fit for enactment. I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has acted on some of the criticisms of the previous draft, for example on the reservation of criminal law and the necessity tests. The recognition of the fact of Welsh law is very much to be welcomed, but it is just a recognition of the reality of the situation in Wales. There remain serious concerns regarding the complexity, uncertainty and indeed lack of coherence in some parts of the Bill.

Throughout Wales’s long devolution journey, Plaid Cymru has always tried to get the best possible deal for everyone and anyone who chooses to make their home in Wales. Those people who call Wales their home best understand the needs of our country. I believe it was Gwynfor Evans who once said that anyone can be Welsh, as long as they are prepared to take the consequences. One of those consequences is that those who live in Wales face up to deciding for Wales, but we recognise that not all parties share this view, which is why we signed up to the Silk commission. It was a cross-party commission, with nominees from each of the four biggest parties in Wales, along with academic experts, who talked, formally and informally, with people all over Wales. It was a truly representative commission and the two reports it produced represented a true consensus.

That consensus was not easy to achieve. We in Plaid Cymru gave way on some points, ones that were important to us but not to others, as did other parties on their issues. The Silk process involved all parties making compromises, including my own, so it was deeply disappointing and frustrating to see the Wales Office dump that true consensus in order to find a lowest common denominator and then call it an “agreement”. Far from being an agreement, the St David’s day White Paper and this eventual Wales Bill fall well short of the consensus that Silk worked so hard to achieve. The profound criticism of this Bill, after just one week, is in the same vein as that of the discredited draft Bill all those weeks ago. The criticism is really striking when we contrast it with the consensus and welcome that surrounded the Silk recommendations in Wales.

What happened to the consensus on the idea that Wales’s natural resources should be in the hands of those living in Wales? What happened to the consensus on the idea that it is the people of Wales who are best placed to determine our policing policies? What happened to the consensus on the idea that it is the people of Wales who best understand our country’s transport needs? Under this Bill, Wales can set its own speed limits, but drink-drive limits are just too complicated for little old us. One of the historical political controversies in Wales relates to water. Water is much too valuable a resource to be left to the Government of Wales, but, yes, we are allowed to have sewerage.

I have many concerns regarding the current list of reserved policy fields, and I shall return to them later. I wish to start by focusing on the foundations of the draft Bill. I should stress that Plaid Cymru warmly welcomes the move to a reserved powers model—that is, to move away from the current devolution model in which the settlement lists areas on which the Assembly can legislate to a model in which the settlement lists areas where they cannot.

There was an unusual and welcome consensus across all of Wales’s six biggest parties on the need to move to a reserved powers model. That consensus stems from the lack of clarity on where the responsibility lies, especially as compared with the Scottish dispensation; the challenges to Welsh legislation in the Supreme Court under the current dispensation; and the danger of further and increased challenges in the Supreme Court if we do not get this sorted out.

It was thought that moving to a reserved powers model would provide clarity both legally and for the public as to what is and what is not within the legislative competence of the Assembly. This is a problem for MPs as well, and it is no small matter. When considering legislation, I do not know how many times I have had to ask: “Is this Wales only? Is it England only? Is it England and Wales only? Is it Great Britain, or is it even Great Britain and Northern Ireland?” Whatever people’s opinion on devolution—whether pro or anti—we can all agree that such ambiguity is bad for democracy.

Moving to a reserved powers model should also be about changing the ruling attitudes towards devolution. It would be for the UK Government to justify whether something should be reserved, rather than justifying why something should be devolved. This is devolution based on subsidiarity—real subsidiarity, as I said to the Secretary of State earlier—rather than retention. It is enabling rather than hobbling, and trusting and respecting rather than suspecting and resenting. That is the case, however much some Whitehall Departments might snarl—and I think we know who they are.

I fear that these principles—the foundations of the arguments in favour of the reserved powers model—have been lost, and the result is a Bill that is unclear, somewhat unstable and possibly unsustainable. We have gone from a position as recently as last May where all six of Wales’s biggest parties agreed on a way forward, to a position now where the UK Government are alone in thinking that this Bill delivers a lasting settlement. The Wales Office has admitted that, rather than using the Scotland Act 1998 as a starting point—a devolution dispensation that has avoided the constant legal challenges and political tinkering that have bedevilled Welsh devolution—it has used the Government of Wales Act 2006, the failed devolution settlement that we are trying to replace. In fact, it is a model based on the administrative devolution in the 1960s, from the creation of the Welsh Office, as it was then known, onwards. It is a deeply outdated model and not fit for today, let alone tomorrow. The Bill claws back the powers for which the people of Wales voted overwhelmingly in 2011, and returns to a long list of reservations. The Western Mail, which, I concede, is not always 100% correct, lists 267 powers that

“Westminster doesn’t want Wales to have”,

ranging

“from axes to outer space”.

Almost every measure in the draft Bill was roundly criticised, but there was particular ire for the lengthy list of reserved powers. The Wales Office admitted that the list was too long, and promised to shorten it. It may well have taken out a few reservations, but the fact that the list has increased from 42 pages to 44 suggests that the ones that remain are even more long-winded than before.

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

There might be a reason for that, and I am sure that the Secretary of State will enlighten us.

[Alun Cairns]

On the list of reservations, simply measuring something according to the number of pages is not necessarily the most sensible thing to do. In the Scotland Act 1998, reservations are listed according to subject matter with a broad headline. A requirement in the Wales Bill is to make the list far more specific, so exceptions to the reservations are included, which naturally lengthens it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts the spirit in which those reservations are defined: to prevent our ending up in court challenging each other.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

I am not sure. I am in two minds about that. If we have full days of debate, that might indeed be the case. I have been here too long, so I remember days of Welsh debates which have been interrupted by statements, urgent questions and all kinds of shenanigans that have led to Welsh debates being curtailed. If we have protected time, we shall see. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) will be looking into this point further in his remarks and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be here to hear him.

I challenge the Secretary of State to respond today and offer justifications for why he believes the people of Wales do not deserve the same responsible government as the people of Scotland. As has been said, the Secretary of State voted for the Scotland Act. He voted to give the people of Scotland a Government with full control of Scottish natural resources, policing and criminal justice. He voted to make the Scottish Government responsible for raising a significant proportion of the money that they spend. He has also voted to devolve policing to Manchester, yet he refuses to do so for Wales. What practical reasons are there to insist that Welsh police forces follow the agenda of English forces? Those who were fortunate enough to be in the House last night would have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) making just those arguments. What reason is there for focusing largely on problems prevalent in urban England, such as knife crime, rather than on meeting the needs of Wales, and in my case, particularly of rural Wales? What practical reason is there for setting, for example, a 350 MW limit on the Welsh Government’s power over energy—a point that I made to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who is no longer in his place—when there is no such limit on the Scottish Government? I raised the wholly practical question about that in my point to that hon. Gentleman. I will expand a little on it now, with the permission of the House.

A local hydroelectric scheme in Snowdonia was going to limit itself to 49 MW—that is the old limit. Those involved told me quite plainly that that was to avoid the entanglements of London bureaucracy. Now they are aiming for 350 MW, and they could produce more, but why should we skew reasonable economic development on the basis of a number that has, as far as I can see, been plucked out of the air? I would like to know why the figure is 350, and not 351 or 349.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman referred to the Silk commission. Does he not accept that 350 MW was a recommendation from Silk and that it was arrived at based on a proposition from members of all political parties?

[Hywel Williams]

We have moved on from the Silk commission, and we are now looking at this issue—[Interruption.] If the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary can contain themselves, I will explain the position in a moment.

I would still like to hear the justification—not from the Silk commission, but from the Secretary of State—as to why the figure is not 351 or 349. What practical reasons are there for devolving the tidal lagoon in Swansea bay but not the lagoons proposed in the Cardiff area or in Colwyn bay, in the area of the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones)? What is the justification? I am interested, and we might even get an answer. However, there is no sensible argument for this limit—for me at least—and there is no limit in Scotland. Unless such decisions are based on reason and principle, the devolution settlement will never be long-lasting, and we will perpetually be debating the constitution.

It is not Plaid Cymru who is the constitutional obsessive here, despite frequent challenges that it is; it is successive Westminster Governments who have chosen Sir Humphrey’s fudge, mudge and fix over empowering the Welsh Government to settle down and get on with the job of bettering the lives of the people of Wales—and, boy, do they have a job on their hands!

The Bill is, among other things, an attempt to keep as much power as possible in Whitehall by devolving as little as possible to Cardiff. As far as I can see, it is not likely to build a stable, sustainable and fair devolution settlement for our country. However, the Wales Office has an opportunity to give us the devolution settlement we need: one that leads not to court cases and blame shifting, but to economic growth, a healthier NHS and a better educated workforce—one that will actually work and stand the test of time.

Plaid Cymru will be tabling amendments to the Bill to ensure that the people of Wales are treated with respect. We will demand a devolution settlement that facilitates progress, rather than puts up blocks. I still hope that the official Opposition will support those amendments. The opportunity to shape Wales’s constitution does not come around that often.

The Bill is crucial to all of us who care about the future of our country so I do not want to be forced to vote against it, and neither do my hon. Friends. There are many things in it that we welcome, including powers over fracking and the devolution of electoral arrangements, for example. For the party of Wales—a party whose very reason for existing is to empower the nation and the people of Wales to run their own affairs—it would be a painful decision to vote against those powers, and I sincerely hope the Secretary of State will not force us to do that. I therefore urge him to take our criticisms in the constructive spirit in which they are intended and to bring forward his own amendments to rescue the Bill.

I urge the Secretary of State to reflect on the significance of what he is building. He is reshaping the constitution of Wales, and he has an opportunity to create a significant shift in Wales’s future—to build a new Wales for a future history of Wales. This is an opportunity to construct the foundation on which his country’s economy will be built; his country’s NHS will be healed and his country’s schools will be transformed. He should not waste it.

The Bill falls well short of the Silk commission’s recommendations. However, the reality is that the commission, despite its good work, has now been superseded by the Scotland Act. Wales must not be forced to lag behind. The Secretary of State can be stubborn and push the Bill if he wishes to, but he will be in danger of pushing yet another failed Bill and of becoming a failed Secretary of State for Wales, and I would not wish that on him. He would be one in the line of a great many others who, as Secretary of State for Wales, have failed to serve Wales all that well. He should heed the arguments of my hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who last night made a compelling case on, for example, devolving policing. We heard not a peep from Welsh Tory Back Benchers or Welsh Labour Members on this matter, let alone ascertained their opinions in the Lobbies, with the honourable exception of the Secretary of State himself, who I think I spotted trooping through the No Lobby. He should also take the advice of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, who called for him to follow in the footsteps of the great Conservative reformers of the past—politicians who foresaw the future and legislated with foresight rather than submitting to the constraints of the present.

Disraeli wrote novels, now largely unread, as well as getting in a bit of prime ministering while he was at it. When asked if he had read “Daniel Deronda”—a very good novel—he replied:

“When I want to read a novel, I write one.”

The Secretary of State might likewise wish to see a good Wales Bill, so he should write one. I am sure he is capable of doing that, but this one is not quite it. He and his Under-Secretary now have a rare opportunity to prove that they are politicians of vision. My hon. Friends and I envy them. As to the Bill, I say with our national poet, Waldo Williams,

“Beth yw trefnu teyrnas? Crefft

Sydd eto’n cropian”,

or, “What is ordering a kingdom? A craft that’s barely crawling.” I say to them: do not waste this opportunity to build your nation into the country that it could be—the country that, by rights, it should be.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he is doing in his constituency, where a number of steelworkers reside, and for the responsible way in which he has pressed issues that are fundamental to a successful steel sale. I met the First Minister earlier this week, and we absolutely agreed that this issue is our priority. We are determined to continue in close dialogue and to work closely together to secure the sale.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

We on the Opposition Benches are solidly with the steelworkers who will be marching through Westminster today. The European Parliament has voted against giving China market economy status. Will the Secretary of State press his colleagues in the Cabinet to agree to higher tariffs on Chinese steel?

[Alun Cairns]

I look forward, like the hon. Gentleman, to meeting the unions that are marching through Westminster later today. Of course, we are determined to work with the unions and with Tata. However, market economy status for China is separate from the capacity of the European Commission to introduce tariffs. Where tariffs have been introduced, they absolutely work. There are 37 trade defence measures in place at the moment. On wire rod, for example, imports are down by 99%, and I could highlight a range of other speciality steels. So let us not confuse market economy status and the capacity to introduce trade defence measures.

[Hywel Williams]

Steel was a significant element in Wales’s £5 billion-worth of exports to the EU in 2015—that is in fact a third of the whole Welsh Government budget. Will the Secretary of State now make the positive case for the advantages to Wales’s businesses, jobs and profitability of remaining in the European single market and the European Union?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: 69% of steel produced in the UK is exported to the European Union. Access to that single European market is fundamental to the steel industry, but it is also fundamental to attracting a buyer. That was the very point I was seeking to highlight to business leaders in Swansea last week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the way in which he has represented the interests of his constituents and of those who depend on steelmaking in his area. He recognises the way in which the plants are interlinked and he has been working closely with the Business Secretary and me to help to support a secure future. I can reassure him that no stone will be left unturned to secure a long-term future for the Corby plant as well as for every other plant across the UK.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I welcome the Secretary of State and his deputy to their new positions and assure you, Sir, that I will endeavour to give them ample opportunity to explain themselves after my questions. Why did the Secretary of State not travel to Mumbai for the Tata board meeting of 29 March?

[Alun Cairns]

The Government have been in close dialogue with Tata steel for many months. My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary was at Tata the month before the Mumbai meeting and had engaged with its directors well before that. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be grateful that as a result of the Government’s actions we managed to avert the immediate closure of the plant and propose a sale.

[Hywel Williams]

I will give the Secretary of State another go. Did he fail to attend the meeting because a more senior Cabinet colleague told him not to do so? Did he decide not to go off his own bat? Or was it more down to the fact that, as the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise said of her boss the Business Secretary to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs yesterday,

“He would not have gone to Australia had he known that they were going to close the ruddy works”?

What stopped our Secretary of State? Was it the Cabinet’s pecking order, was it indolence, or was it just plain ignorance?

[Alun Cairns]

I am disappointed with the hon. Gentleman’s approach. Steelworkers want to see Government and Opposition, and the unions and the company, work together to secure a long-term future. The Government have been in a long-term dialogue, which is demonstrated by the ongoing sales process, as opposed to the plant facing the risk of immediate closure.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

That is a matter for the Welsh Government, but I will happily raise that point. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) underlines the fact that flexibility would create greater opportunity to try to fill those gaps.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the Minister concede that one of the main problems with the health service in Wales is underfunding, on which the new announcement on further devolution has signally failed to deliver?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about funding, and there have been many debates in the Chamber about the funding of the NHS in England and in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) once said, Aneurin Bevan would turn in his grave if he thought that a Welsh Labour Government were cutting the NHS budget while a Conservative Government in Westminster were growing the NHS budget.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

This Government have made additional money available through the discretionary housing payment to help individuals facing difficult circumstances. Only three out of 22 local authorities in the whole of Wales—Cardiff, Caerphilly and Conwy—applied for additional discretionary housing payments. The hon. Gentleman’s local authority did not do that. Let us be clear: the roots of the removal of the spare room subsidy lie deeply in the Labour Benches, because it was a Labour Administration who took it away from the private-rented sector. We are merely extending that principle to the social-rented sector.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

My own local authority runs a useful forum for local agencies to plan a response to the bedroom tax, but its work is bedevilled by a lack of certainty over central Government support through the discretionary fund. Will the Minister prevail on his colleagues to give more certainty to future funding, which would help our work?

[Alun Cairns]

The discretionary housing payment is completely flexible and local authorities should use their discretion to see that it is used in the best way. The Wales Audit Office report provides excellent data and highlights some authorities such as Caerphilly and Cardiff that provide excellent practice and support their tenants in meeting the obligations of the spare room subsidy. After all, it is about returning the long-term unemployed back to the workplace, as that offers them the best opportunities and the best prospects.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

11. What recent discussions he has had on delivery of the online universal credit application process in the Welsh language.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I recently discussed the provision of Welsh language services for universal credit with the welfare reform Minister, Lord Freud, who confirmed that the Department for Work and Pensions is making good progress with the development of the universal credit digital service. A meeting is scheduled with the Welsh language commissioner in the new year to discuss Welsh language provision for the live service.

[Hywel Williams]

I recently met the team delivering the service, who are doing a good job under difficult circumstances. They told me that the Welsh language version will not be available until after the English language version is available. Will the Minister find out why that is, and when it will happen?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales was there only last week when this issue was discussed at the Jobcentre Plus. I have also raised it with the DWP Minister. We are meeting the Welsh language commissioner to ensure that we develop a service that is appropriate and applicable, and that grows with the growth of universal credit across the whole of Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. Of course, it is a matter for employers to pay the living wage. The national minimum wage is set by the Low Pay Commission, but obviously when an employer can afford to pay the living wage, we would encourage them to do so.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

As the Minister mentioned, Alan Milburn and the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission have pointed out that under Labour’s minimum wage proposals, the rate of increase between now and 2020 would be slower than that between 1999 and 2014. Does he agree that what we have heard from the Labour party about an £8 minimum wage shows that the Labour machine is still firmly stuck on the spin cycle?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, which gives me the opportunity to underline yet again Alan Milburn’s point about the lack of ambition among those on the Labour Benches. Only my party cares about low pay and only my party has given, in the past year, the largest increase in the national minimum wage, 3%—more than twice the rate of inflation.

[Hywel Williams]

Does the Minister therefore agree with my contention that the way to achieve a basic but decent standard of life is the living wage, which would benefit 266,000 workers in Wales alone, and in the UK would slash the tax credits bill by £1.5 billion per annum? Clearly, Plaid Cymru’s policy on the living wage is the best for Wales and for the UK.

[Alun Cairns]

Where possible, we would encourage employers to pay the living wage, but the Government’s responsibility is to ensure that the national minimum wage is adhered to. It is set independently, and it is a balanced discussion between employers, Government and employees.

S4C

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Thursday 31st January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The hon. Gentleman uses the interesting word “exploit”. Some might characterise what we said at the time as proper concern for the national channel and the only channel broadcasting in Welsh. He and I differ in our views. Clearly he has his own beliefs.

[Alun Cairns]

I remind the hon. Gentleman how packed Westminster Hall was on that occasion. People who had never shown any interest in the channel came merely to use it as a political stick, rather than listening to the reassurances given by the Secretary of State and the Minister, which have now been realised in the agreement signed earlier this week. Until then, the channel had avoided being used for political purposes. I hope that it can return to that state of consensus on how it is supported. That is the best way to secure its long-term future. This week, those guarantees from the Government have become reality. I was pleased that the BBC Trust and the chairman of S4C approved their operating agreement. It is excellent news and exactly meets the Minister’s commitments. It satisfies the demands of the Welsh public, the industry, S4C and the BBC.

Some points in the agreement are still open to interpretation. They relate to powers to intervene, which lie with the trust rather than the corporation, and extreme circumstances in which the BBC could withdraw funding. It is important to emphasise that interpretation of “the BBC” in that document should refer to the BBC Trust, and that there is an expectation that the BBC Trust would consult Ministers and others well before getting into a position to withhold funding.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Today, we are debating an uprating Bill that will result in a real-terms cut in support for people working and contributing to the economy. That paradox will not be lost on those hard-working families so beloved of spin doctors. I do not see how the Bill will promote the work ethic so beloved of those on both sides of the House, and I do not see how it will enable working people to contribute more effectively in the savings culture.

As a Welsh MP, I have to say that Wales will be hit particularly hard. Incomes in Wales are substantially lower than elsewhere. Gross value added per head in Wales is £15,696, whereas in the UK it is £21,368—a difference of more than £5,500 per person.

[Alun Cairns]

Given what the hon. Gentleman has said, is he comfortable that welfare payments are rising at twice the rate of earnings?

[Hywel Williams]

This point has been done to death this afternoon. It says a lot about the quality of the hon. Gentleman’s argument that he repeats it continually. I do not think I will bother with it any further.

Some 6.8% of households in the south-east of England, for example, claim working tax credits. In Wales, that figure is 7.1%. In Gwynedd—my own area—9,200 families are on tax credits of some form out of 53,000 households. That is 17.5% of the population—nearly three times the Welsh rate. The point is that any cuts to in-work benefits for the low-paid will hit Wales and my constituency particularly hard.

Public Sector Pensions

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

Honestly, I think we need to move on to the subject of the debate. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will have time later to make those and other fatuous points.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

I would like to take the hon. Gentleman back to what he said a few moments ago and remind him that when Plaid Cymru was part of the coalition in the Welsh Assembly Government, its members refused to cross the picket lines at that time, too.

[Hywel Williams]

Well, honestly, I am sure that you would not want me to be diverted down this particular route, Madam Deputy Speaker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

The bulk of my speech, as one would expect, is about the Government’s proposals, but the hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see.

Lleu Williams from University and College Union Wales told me:

“We are pleased that MPs will debate public sector pensions a week after tens of thousands of people in Wales took industrial action to show how angry they are…The action last week, alongside the debate on public sector pensions, is testament to the strength of feeling on these issues”

in Wales. He continued:

“We hope today’s debate sends a clear message from the people of Wales to Westminster that we will not go quietly into the night over these proposed changes.”

I have heard from the other side that union members did not support the strike—they have deserted the cause, as it were. UCU general secretary, Sally Hunt, confirms that it saw record recruitment levels both before and after the strike. That gives the lie to that one. Finally, the National Union of Teachers welcomes today’s debate and says that rather than creating an unnecessary and damaging divide between the public and private sectors, Ministers would do well to focus their attention on securing fair pensions for all if future Governments are to avoid pensioner poverty on an unaffordable scale, which is the point that I made earlier regarding future dependence on state benefits.

I shall refer briefly to that bunch of hard, crazed revolutionaries, the British Medical Association, which strongly opposes the plans set out by the Government to reform the NHS pension scheme, including increased contributions from doctors; raising the standard pensionable age for staff; and devaluing many pension settlements. It queries whether the NHS pension scheme is in need of reform, given that it underwent a major overhaul only three years ago. It says that the scheme is in very good financial health, and generates a surplus for the Treasury. Indeed, over the seven years from 2009-10 to 2014-15, the NHS pension scheme is expected to provide a surplus of £10.7 billion for the Treasury.

The BMA is engaged with the Governments in Westminster and in the devolved nations on the proposed reforms to pensions, but it has not ruled out balloting members on industrial action over the matter. It is thinking of moving towards action, and its decision will be informed by a ballot at the beginning of the year. That is just a sample of the views and arguments that we have heard—there are plenty more.

One of my constituents, a small business person—such people are often cited by the Government as those who would suffer as a result of the strike—said to me on the day of the strike:

“They”—

the Government here in London—

“think that people like me don’t support the strike. They’re wrong. A lot of my business comes from county council workers. How will I keep going if they don’t have the money to spend?”

That shows the interaction and co-dependence of the public and private sectors in areas such as mine.

[Alun Cairns]

If that argument is to be sustained, is it not logical that the way to resolve the economic problem is simply to make the public sector as big as possible, and the private sector can then profit?

[Hywel Williams]

I am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman arguing for that. I thought he took the contrary view, but perhaps my sense of irony is underdeveloped.

The Office for Budget Responsibility estimated in March 2011 that 400,000 people in the public sector would lose their jobs. In its response to the autumn statement, that rose by nearly 80% to a disastrous 710,000. One further, crucial reason as to why we in Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party have called this debate is that public sector jobs are disproportionately important to countries and regions outside London and the south-east. Paying an extra 3% out of their wages is bad for individuals wherever they live, and I have particular sympathy for those in inner-city areas with high costs such as public service workers in central London. Looking across the UK, the 3% imposition and the job losses will have a particularly strong impact on Scotland, Wales and the north of England, especially as the private sector is generally weaker in those areas.

That will be even more the case if the Government follow Labour’s lead in 2008 and introduce regional rates of pay, as my hon. Friends have said. The figures on the size of the public sector are clear, sad and revealing. Briefly, in Scotland the public sector accounts for 28.6% of jobs; in the east the figure is 23.7%; in the north-east it is 29.4%; in the south- east it is 22.8%; in Wales, unfortunately the figure is highest at 31.2%; and in London it is 22%. There is a clear north-south divide. The people we represent will be hit particularly hard, as will our local economies because of the grotesquely distorted, south-east-weighted economic development of the UK and the obsession with the City of London.

This morning I received an e-mail from Mr Mark Rowe, a PCS member from the Devon area. I do not know Mr Rowe; I have never met him, and I do not know what his politics are, but he said this in his e-mail:

“Dear Mr Williams, Thank you for supporting hard working public servants in their struggle over pensions. It is good to know that someone is. We had a huge rally through Torquay on the 30th, hardly a ‘damp squib’”—

as it was described by the Government. He added that there had been “much public support” and asked why Labour are not “fighting our corner”. Public sector pensions have not been the subject of a single full Opposition day debate in the House for the past 18 months, despite the fact that Labour has had 36 Opposition day debates since the public sector pension changes were first introduced in 2010.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As I said, sometimes complexity is good and necessary. I do not want to appear too Panglossian about this, but it seems to me that we have a system that works fairly well. However, as we say in Welsh, nid da ble gellir gwell—it is not good if it can get better. Certainly that is our ambition.

The principle of the system for Wales inevitably still leads to a lack of clarity and some confusion for the public. I am glad to see that the commission will be looking at systems of devolution in other parts of the world. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) referred to the Scottish model as one under which everything is devolved other than that which is not, as compared with the situation in Wales, where nothing is devolved other than that which is. There is a great deal to commend that particular system.

I also encourage the commission to look beyond the boundaries of the UK. In an intervention on the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), I pointed out that the system in the Basque country, in terms of money, is slightly different to that in the rest of Spain, which generally operates on a block grant principle, whereas the Basques have historically, over many centuries, raised their own taxes and then sent a certain amount of money down to Madrid. That is easier for them given that the gross domestic product in the Basque country is currently 140% of the average across the country, so they are in the rather lucky position of having the money to do that. It is interesting that the Basque country has a steel industry and a history of heavy industry, but seems to have managed to go beyond that with the Mondragon co-operatives and various other methods that it has adopted. The area is similar to Wales in population and culture, with a smallish linguistic minority, but there we are—it seems to be succeeding where Wales is not.

I would say this, but I think that the will of the people of Wales was made clear in the referendum. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy about the turnout, but unless we have compulsory voting there will be variations in turnout and I do not think that the lowish turnout for the Assembly elections indicates disenchantment with that body—rather, it is growing in popularity and interest. He made a good point about defending the institution. It may be a body that we are not always particularly keen on, but at least it is ours, and people must defend it. I hope that the commission’s timetable allows for legislative change before the next election, but I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out the options, which will repay close study.

I am conscious of the fact that time is passing and that other hon. Members wish to speak, but I will make a couple of further points. There is plenty that could be done, and I recommend that the commission look at two excellent private Member’s Bills, which happen to be mine: the Bilingual Juries (Wales) Bill, which I introduced in 2007 and which failed abjectly to proceed; and the Jobcentre Plus (Wales) Bill that I introduced earlier this year and which the hon. Gentleman opposed very successfully indeed, along with many of his friends across the border.

Those are two practical changes that could profitably be looked at by the commission, and I am sure that there are more. In my party at least, we have an appetite for change. We have done the work, and we have the imagination to think about what sort of changes might be introduced, so I commend both those measures.

If hon. Members want an example of why the devolution of certain measures is necessary, I refer them to the recent shenanigans of S4C and my early-day motion 2316. The scrutiny of the Public Bodies Bill by the majority of Members from Wales was entirely deficient as far as S4C was concerned. There were five Members from Wales on the Committee that considered the Bill. Two were unable to speak because of the role that they played, but the other three Members worked very hard indeed, and I pay tribute to the hon. Members for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). We were able to debate the issue at length, and I was glad that we could do so. Subsequently, I secured a Westminster Hall debate on the subject, which was well attended.

When the Public Bodies Bill was on Report, however, we did not, for reasons that I will not go into—I shall not begin to point fingers—reach the amendment on S4C, so the majority of Members from Wales did not have an opportunity to express their opinion. That is one reason why the commission should look at an area that is difficult and complicated to devolve.

[Alun Cairns]

In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman is commenting on S4C, will he congratulate the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on the fantastic deal that S4C has secured with funding from the BBC?

[Hywel Williams]

The deal that was eventually reached has pleased no one and has pleased everyone to some extent because S4C has taken a hard hit on money. However, I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, and to Members from all parties, including Lords Wyn Roberts, Dafydd Wigley, Dafydd Elystan-Morgan and John Morris, who pressed the case, along with the BBC Trust member for Wales, Elan Closs Stephens, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, my hon. Friends and, perhaps, me. Everyone is included—success has many parents—so let us leave it at that. All I want to say is that broadcasting should be subject to fair scrutiny.

Funding Formula

Debate between Hywel Williams and Alun Cairns

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. Before the debate started, I forewarned you that I may have to leave early because of my Select Committee responsibilities, and I apologise for that.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this debate. I recognise and support the spirit in which he has raised this sensitive matter, which affects all the nations and regions of the United Kingdom. He has underlined the point that we have a reforming Government and that bold steps need to be taken to come up with a formula that will serve all the nations and regions in a positive and constructive way that is dependent on need. The debate has been going on for some time in Wales. Even before the evidence was as stark as it is now, there was a view that relative deprivation in Wales meant that the Barnett formula was not serving Wales well.

A mathematical formula, such as the Barnett formula, offers significant advantages. The first advantage is that it offers a guarantee of funding, particularly to devolved Administrations, who need such a guarantee to plan, which prevents, for example, the Welsh Assembly Government, or the Wales Office on its behalf here in Westminster, becoming involved in horse trading year on year. Such a mathematical formula obviously offers that guarantee. The second advantage is that in times of limited or reduced spending, the Barnett formula offers protection to the devolved Administrations.

On the other hand, there are significant disadvantages with the formula being so far out of date, and I regret the time that it has taken to get to this point. The previous Government should accept their responsibility for leaving it so long. Despite Lord Barnett’s strong view that the formula needed reform, it was not accepted. He plainly said that the formula was unfair.

[Hywel Williams]

My memory of that slightly pre-dates the hon. Gentleman’s. I draw his attention to numerous debates over many years when Front-Bench spokesmen on both sides used the formulation, “The Barnett formula serves Wales well.” The hon. Gentleman should concede that both Conservative and Labour Governments were staunch defenders of the Barnett formula. My party, of course, took another view.

[Alun Cairns]

I shall square that point in a moment, but I do not want to let the previous Government off the hook for their delaying tactics in resolving the matter because of its sensitivity. Whereas Lord Barnett plainly said that it was not fair, the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that it was fair enough. That certainly was not good enough for Wales. I regret to say that despite 13 years in office, the previous Government did not have the opportunity to resolve the formula.