Scunthorpe Station Ticket Office

Debate between Huw Merriman and Holly Mumby-Croft

Thursday 20th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Huw Merriman)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) on securing this debate on the proposals regarding the Scunthorpe station ticket office. Scunthorpe station, as she stated, is managed by TransPennine trains, which I understand proposes to close all ticket office windows at Scunthorpe station and move staff to other station areas where they are better placed to help passengers buy tickets, to provide advice and to give assistance.

There has been a huge shift in the way passengers purchase tickets. Nearly half of all ticket sales in rail are made online. Around one in every 10 transactions took place at a ticket office in 2022-23, down from one in three a decade earlier, equal to 13% of rail revenue. I understand from TransPennine trains that statistics for Scunthorpe station reflect this position, with 11% of transactions from Scunthorpe station being made from the ticket office. The figures that have been supplied to me show that is equivalent to 59 transactions per day from the ticket office.

It is important that industry takes steps to modernise the passenger experience, by moving staff out from ticket offices to be more visible and accessible around the station. These reforms will bring our stations in tune with what customers expect from other modern and responsive services, including supermarkets and banks, where customer assistants help with information and support, and help make digital transactions on the shop floor.

I welcome the fact that the rail industry has started this process by launching consultations on the future of ticket offices, under the ticketing and settlement agreement process. That process sets out a well-established mechanism that train operators must follow when proposing major changes to ticket office opening hours, including closures.

[Holly Mumby-Croft]

Does my hon. Friend agree that a member of staff can be more visible only if they are physically in the station? It is impossible for a member of staff to assist a passenger buying a ticket from a ticket machine if they are not there.

[Huw Merriman]

The aim is a redeployment aim, as I understand it from the train operator, but I take the point with regard to hours. My hon. Friend will be aware that I just set out the process. This is a consultation process. Ultimately, it falls back to the passenger groups, who represent passengers, to discuss these proposals with each train operator. If they are not satisfied that, for example, the accessibility requirements will be met, which has to be legally met, they will rescope those changes. If they are not agreed by the train operator and the passenger group feels it needs to be taken further, it will be for the Secretary of State to determine. Her point is well made; I will just leave it there, given this is a live consultation.

Train operators began the passenger consultations on 5 July. This is an industry-led process, with each train operator managing its own station-by-station consultation. I understand my hon. Friend is particularly concerned about the impact of the changes on elderly and disabled passengers. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) made the same point. As part of the ticketing and settlement agreement process, train operators must set out the improvements or alternatives they propose to put in place to support the needs of passengers, and include that in the notice sent to the other operators and the passenger bodies, to which I just referred.

Each operator’s approach must take into consideration the potential impact on individuals with accessibility needs. I recognise that not everyone has access to a smart phone or the internet, and that some passengers will prefer to use cash or to speak to a member of staff. This week, I met with accessibility groups again, to hear their views directly and to encourage them to work with the train operators to help shape these ideas. I also met with the train operators this week, and reiterated the need to ensure proposals worked for every passenger.

[Huw Merriman]

It is certainly the case that a number of stations are not part of the proposed closures. Just over 70 ticket offices will remain open. Another example is Manchester, where the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly will not remain open, if these proposals are followed through, but Victoria and Oxford Road ticket offices will remain open. Given that the hon. Member is also the SNP shadow transport spokesperson, I will do him the honour of writing to him so I can set out in more detail exactly why one station has been chosen over another and the methodology. Indeed, perhaps I can put that in the Library for all to read.

As modern ticketing and payment methods are rolled out more widely, we will work with industry to ensure that everyone remains able to buy a ticket. Staff will be available to provide additional support to those who need and want it, including by helping passengers to use ticket machines and providing the type of assistance that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) said occurs under the current system. In the event that suitable tickets cannot be purchased from the station of departure, passengers will not be expected to travel out of their way to buy a ticket, and will be able to buy en route or at their final destination.

[Holly Mumby-Croft]

For a lot of people there is a great deal of anxiety about the idea of getting on a train and going somewhere when they do not have a ticket in their hand or on their phone. I am probably bolshie enough to get on the train and hope I can sort it out somewhere along the journey, but many people will not be. If that change needs to go ahead, it needs to be widely publicised and people need to be given the confidence to be able to travel in that way.

[Huw Merriman]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is certainly uppermost in my mind that there will need to be additional training. Forty-three per cent of all stations currently do not have a ticket office, and it is perfectly possible for passengers from those stations to travel, as they do now. Sometimes ticket machines are not operating; at that particular juncture, the staff on the train will be aware of the situation and will act accordingly. On the trains I use, I am used to people getting on board and saying, “I’ve been unable to purchase a ticket. Can I purchase one?” and in all my years I have never experienced any response but, “Yes, that’s absolutely fine,” rather than going down the penalty fare route. My hon. Friend makes a good point, though, and I will make sure it is followed up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Merriman]

There will of course be some members of staff who will not wish to make that journey, as their job changes to being multi-skilled and multifaceted within the station as opposed to solely working behind the ticket office. In such cases, where there are a number of ticket office staff available, perhaps one may come out and do that multifaceted role, but the other two may not wish to go on that journey. That may be an issue for them and the station. I recognise, though, that Members have highlighted the challenge of situations in which only one staff member is present and perhaps the hours are not exactly the same. I refer again to the live consultation: that should be fed back. People will be aware of the appeals process because I have just detailed it, and we will of course see what occurs at the end of the process.

I hope I am not repeating myself when I say that passengers will remain able to secure staff assistance and will continue to have access to station facilities such as waiting rooms and toilets as currently provided.

[Holly Mumby-Croft]

Is the Minister concerned about the possible risk of antisocial behaviour if we move from having staffed stations to unstaffed periods of time in the evenings, which is what is proposed in Scunthorpe?

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Merriman]

The London underground moved from having ticket-office staff to the type of model I am describing, and I do not believe there was any impact vis-à-vis antisocial behaviour. Again, I encourage my hon. Friend to put forward such points. There will of course be engagement and there is a requirement to meet thresholds to ensure that groups with characteristics are looked after and that we do not increase antisocial behaviour. I encourage her to follow up on those points, which I assure her I have raised myself.

My hon. Friend referred to station safety following the reform. The UK’s rail network is one of the safest in Europe and we will never compromise the safety of passengers on our railways. As the industry takes forward vital reforms, safety remains a top priority for all, and certainly for me. It is expected that moving staff out of ticket offices will make them more visible to passengers, and I hope that it will enhance safety when members of staff are on the platform.

[Holly Mumby-Croft]

Will the Minister give way?

[Huw Merriman]

I will give way one more time—my hon. Friend is working hard.

[Holly Mumby-Croft]

I am so grateful to the Minister. I do not mean to be flippant, but I should point out that although moving staff out from ticket offices may make them more visible, moving them entirely out of the station, so that they are not there, certainly will not. I am particularly worried about periods of time when there will no longer be staff at the station.

[Huw Merriman]

I hear my hon. Friend’s point. I refer, of course, to the fact that there is a consultation. I hope she appreciates the argument I am making that while the staff are there, if they are away from the ticket office and on the frontline, they are accessible, can give information and can make people more secure. She made the point that, if there is a reduction in hours, there will not be a member of staff there. I refer again to the feedback to the consultation, but I absolutely take that point. I do not want to pre-empt anything in respect of the outcome, but her voice is heard in the Chamber and her points are on the record.

Mr Deputy Speaker no doubt wants me to wrap up, so I should get to the end of my speech. I encourage my hon. Friend, all right hon. and hon. Members, and all constituents to respond to the consultation, and I will encourage TransPennine trains and all other operators to take those responses into account as they finalise their approaches. The consultations provide the opportunity to scrutinise the train operating company proposals to ensure that they will work for passengers. Passengers will be able to find out more about the proposals at their local station or online. If passengers want to raise views, they can contact the relevant passenger body, London TravelWatch or Transport Focus. The passenger bodies will consider any feedback from the public on the ticket office proposals. I will meet them shortly to ensure that they have the resources to fulfil their important role.

I believe that the industry’s proposed reforms should enable staff to provide a more flexible, agile and personal service. I reiterate that my hon. Friend should encourage her constituents to engage in the consultation process for Scunthorpe station ticket office, as that is the best way to ensure that their views are considered. Once again, I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate on station ticket offices. I wish you, Mr Deputy Speaker, a wonderful summer, and thank all the staff in this great place, including the police who keep us secure. I wish everyone—all the officials who work across Whitehall as well as all our great people inside this building—a wonderful summer. I will be spending three weeks on the railway, following in the footsteps of Michael Portillo, although without the dress sense. I will be looking at what our wonderful railway does and all the people who work on it. I look forward to spending my August with the great railway community.