Exiting the European Union

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely not, and my hon. Friend is right to make that point. It is not just we in this House who need these explanations. Frankly, businesses in particular are being left completely blind at the moment about how on earth they are supposed to prepare for the end of the transition. We are no further down the road with a deal, and they have no idea of the terms under which they are going to be trading in a few weeks’ time. I am sure many of those businesses, notwithstanding the total chaos that they are subject to at the moment as well, are tuning in to the parliamentary channel today to try to shed some light on this issue, and they did not even get a hello or a by your leave from the Minister.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

On the point that my hon. Friend has just made, anyone who was watching the Public Accounts Committee session yesterday with three permanent secretaries—I had an opportunity as Chair of the Future Relationship with the European Union Committee to guest—would have found that in respect of Northern Ireland, just to take one example of uncertainty, it is impossible at the moment to answer any questions about how the arrangements are going to work. And we are—what?—39 days away from actually leaving the transition period.

[Lucy Powell]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. He makes a very important point. Really, if this Government want to have any standing whatsoever with business, which is very shaky at the moment, I have to say—their reputation with business is incredibly shaky—they must do better. Any business tuning in right now would be, frankly, appalled because this has given them no information whatsoever.

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[Lucy Powell]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I agree with him. I am beginning to change my mind as we stand here discussing this. Well, I say “discussing” it—we are discussing these issues, but discussion in a vacuum is not really proper discussion at all, is it?

This statutory instrument leaves more questions than answers, as we still have no idea what, if anything, will replace aspects of the current EU framework for the movement of goods in a future trade deal. Any deal is almost certain to make arrangements for the continued market in goods across the UK-EU border. Even with no deal, there would still be a number of implications for trade within the UK, as has already been mentioned by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown). We want the Government to get such a deal, and we want them to do so urgently. As each day passes, the uncertainty for UK businesses is prolonged at a time when many of them are coping with unprecedented uncertainty due to the covid pandemic and the ensuing economic crisis.

The Prime Minister promised us an “oven-ready” deal, but it seems that in reality it is anything but. He promised us a future relationship, which included

“no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors.”

I have not seen much sign of that today. He promised that he would safeguard workers’ rights and consumer and environmental protections, and keep people safe with a

“broad, comprehensive and balanced scrutiny partnership.”

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend mentions tariffs, and of course we are all hoping for an agreement that means no tariffs are charged. The Government have already made clear to the motor industry and to car manufacturers that they have failed to get a satisfactory agreement on rules of origin, and therefore for some exports of the British car industry. We send, I think, just under 2,000 cars a day to the European Union. If they do not meet the rules of origin requirements, given the Government’s failure in the negotiations, they will face tariffs.

[Lucy Powell]

Absolutely. My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and that is why this debate is so important. It coincides with worrying rumours—I hear that they are rumours, but rumours can cause a great deal of worry—about the future of the Nissan car plant in Sunderland.

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[Lucy Powell]

We do not even have certainty about what we are going to do at Christmas, do we—let alone any of the certainty that we were hoping for beyond the new year? As I said earlier, the Conservative party really is losing face with business. It used to be the party of business, but right now I am really not sure that it is.

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) mentioned a moment ago a farm in his constituency. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) saw the comments of the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on “Marr” the week before last. When he was asked about the impact that tariffs, in the event of no deal, would have on lamb farmers, he said, “Well, they’ll just have to diversify into beef.” Is she aware that the chief executive of the National Sheep Association, Mr Phil Stocker, said:

“Mr Eustice’s comments will have angered many of our nation’s sheep farmers”?

Does not that reinforce the point that she has just made—that the Government are, frankly, losing face in the business community?

[Lucy Powell]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point. It is not only the business community, but the farming community—communities that have historically both been the base of the Conservative party. I am not sure whether that was the same interview in which the Environment Secretary also made false claims about Lurpak butter which had to be rectified by the company afterwards.

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[Lucy Powell]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The point is important to the statutory instrument, because I am not sure of its status. As my hon. Friend says, is it just another example of a total disregard for devolution and power sharing, further undermining that at such an important juncture. It is important to know whether, in writing to the devolved Administrations before laying the statutory instrument, the Government decided just to plough on anyway and totally disregard that consent, or whether consent is required on a retrospective basis. I really am at a loss on that and it makes me wonder whether we are discussing this statutory instrument on the basis on which we all thought we were discussing it, so I think that is an important point for the Minister to address.

[Hilary Benn]

Paragraph 2.2 of the explanatory memorandum reminds us that the provisions, which, as I understand the regulations, the Government are proposing to disapply, are the part of the EU treaty that encourages the free movement of goods by avoiding quantitative restrictions. The whole purpose of the negotiation, according to the Prime Minister’s word, is to achieve a deal that does not involve quantitative restrictions, yet we are being asked to disapply them. Furthermore, in the next paragraph it states:

“For clarity, as the GB intends to have its own regulatory regime after the transition period, these rights are being disapplied as it is no longer appropriate for them to coexist”—

coexist with what?—

“and pose some risk of challenge if we decide to diverge from EU law.”

Would it not be helpful to the House if the Minister, in replying, were to give us some explanation of the potential risk of challenge to something that the Government say is their objective in the negotiations—the free movement of goods without quantitative restrictions?

[Lucy Powell]

As always, my right hon. Friend makes an incredibly powerful point. Although on the face of it the statutory instrument looks like it is fairly narrow, it is actually of huge significance and importance. It is inextricably linked to the current negotiations. That is why, as the shadow Minister, I thought—foolishly maybe—that the Government had decided to bring it to the Floor of the House. As I say, there are aspects that look narrow, but it is a hugely significant statutory instrument. That is why I was flabbergasted at the beginning of the debate that the Minister did not seem to have anything much to say about it.

As other colleagues have pointed out in other statutory instruments and through the passage of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, it is still unclear what checks, controls and processes will be put in place on qualifying Northern Ireland goods, which are also implicated in this statutory instrument, moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. Despite the Government’s protestations at the time about the very real dangers, as they saw them, of EU attempts to blockade NI-GB movement and goods, there was absolutely nothing to deal with that apparent clear and present danger in the Bill, as we discussed at the time. We support unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to the rest of the UK market. However, there are a number of issues that stand relating to the breadth of the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) is across that matter as well. The Government appear to acknowledge that it is problematic, but it remains unclear what they are going to do about it.

Today’s statutory instrument sheds no further light on that. In fact, it probably makes it even more complicated. We need further clarification, because the definition is not sufficiently tightly drawn to provide the protections intended. The wide drafting of the definition of “qualifying goods” is the problem, because it includes anything that is in circulation within Northern Ireland without being subject to customs control while there. However, it also includes goods processed in Northern Ireland from Great Britain-derived goods, which are themselves subject to customs control in Northern Ireland. I hope people are keeping up, as this is quite a complex subject, which is why I hope the Minister will properly respond. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) has said, that could include whisky imported from Scotland to Northern Ireland, which might be in duty suspension in Northern Ireland but then is used to make mince pies in Belfast. That would leave those mince pies as qualifying Northern Ireland goods, despite the whisky used to make them being subject to customs controls. So we have argued that the definition of qualifying Northern Ireland goods is not sustainable in the longer term. It appears that Ministers agree, but will the Minister let us know today what plans the Government have in place to resolve this?