“Councillors on the Frontline”

Helen Jones Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate. Like many Members who have spoken, I am a former councillor, although I feel rather inadequate in the face of the long service of all the other Members here, having served as a councillor for only five years.

I became a councillor in 2002, and it was easy for me to do so, because I did not have a boss to ask permission from. I was running my own businesses, and like other Members, I found it easy to allocate time to being a councillor. I sat on a district council, and the majority of meetings were in the evening, so it was easy for me to attend. At no stage did I contemplate putting my name forward for a county council, given the number of daytime meetings and the time commitment they would have involved.

I am pleased to make my contribution as a member of the Select Committee, and I pay tribute to the Chairman for pulling the report together in a way all members were able to support. Listening to the debate, I was reminded of the evidence sessions we held—almost 12 months ago now. We had a number of formal evidence sessions, but I got most out of the more informal sessions, and particularly the speed dating, which was much to the interest of my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill). It was extremely valuable to be able to meet people who would not normally give evidence in the very formal Select Committee setting. It was particularly valuable to speak to people who had contemplated becoming a councillor, but who had chosen not to do so, because there is no body representing them.

As an aside, let me say there is some merit in making more use of informal evidence sessions in the Select Committee system. We get to speak to people on more of a one-to-one basis and to hear their views without their needing to be concerned about going into the House of Commons, sitting behind a desk with microphones and being interrogated by Members of Parliament. We got an awful lot out of the less formal sessions, and the Chairman is looking at doing more informal sessions, because we generally get more out of them.

The report is important because the councillor’s role is important, and councillors enable councils to do their work well. We need to encourage more people to put their names forward, and I want to talk about the role of the political parties in that.

I come from an area with a two-tier authority. The first tier across much of my constituency is parish councils. Parish councils are, of course, not political, and people with an interest in the community will put their names forward for parish councils. However, at district and county level, the councils are run on party-political lines. I do not know the statistics, but a significant proportion of councillors on county and district councils are from the established political parties, although I suspect there are more independent members on district councils than on county councils.

We need to make it easier for people to become councillors. In the main, the way to do that is through our established political parties. My hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst is doing work on that in the Conservative party, and I am sure the same kind of work is being undertaken in the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. The role of the parties in encouraging people to come forward must be brought out. Perhaps the parties should come together and put together a uniform campaign to explain why people should become councillors.

Another issue raised in the report is the need to encourage people with broader experience of life—particularly people with experience of senior roles in the community—to put their names forward. If we look back two or three generations—we often see this when we visit council offices, because there are photographs of past mayors and past councils on the walls—we see that business leaders, head teachers, accountants, lawyers and other professional people with experience of senior roles were actively engaged in local politics. One concern is that we are not encouraging that cohort to come forward, and those people often see the council’s role through a negative lens, rather than a positive one. As has been said, it is distressing to hear of councillors being encouraged to take the fact that they are a councillor off their CVs; that is a matter of great concern.

The Chairman of the Select Committee drew attention to the fact that the average age of a councillor is now 60, that only 31% of councillors are women and that 96% of councillors are white. On the age range, we have discussed the fact that the role can be attractive to somebody who is straight out of university; for them, the allowance is relatively large, and somebody who is young and perhaps living at home can use it as their primary source of income. However, as people move into jobs that are more demanding of their time, and particularly when they have children, it becomes difficult for them to get involved—my children were reasonably old before I felt able to put time into becoming a councillor. Parents may, therefore, be particularly under-represented among councillors.

In written evidence to the Committee, Professor Colin Copus made an interesting European comparison. It turns out that Spain’s councillors are the youngest, with a mean age of as low as 45. We then go up the table through Switzerland, Italy, Greece, Austria, France, Germany and Sweden, before we get to the UK at the very top, with an average age of 59. We really need to focus on those in the middle years of their careers and to make it interesting for them to come forward.

How might we do that? Clearly, we need to ensure that people are not put off by the prospect of becoming a councillor. There is a real lack of understanding of the time that being a councillor takes up. We have spoken about training, and I recognise the need for it, but one thing I was aware of, particularly in the early years of being a councillor, was the massive number of briefings, which take up an awful amount of time. Even when we become more experienced as councillors, we are still dragged along to many meetings that are perhaps not necessary. I recognise, as the hon. Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) said, that councillors need to be actively involved in the council, but far too often, councillors go into meetings that are not particularly significant or valuable, and they come away thinking, “Did I really get anything out of that?”

One thing that is a real turn-off for people thinking about becoming a councillor—we, as parliamentarians, are responsible for this—is the bickering and the Punch and Judy nature of politics. Parliament often does not represent itself well. Many people’s only awareness of national politics is what they see in Prime Minister’s Question Time on television. They see the bickering, and it does not encourage people to come forward.

We have heard a fair amount about the under-representation of women in councils. I should be interested to hear the view of the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), but I think women are particularly put off by the bickering that sometimes happens in a council chamber. We all support robust debate, but sometimes it goes too far.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

I hear that point made frequently. Anyone who has seen women council leaders in the north-west would probably not think that. The real drawbacks are meeting times and the lack of child care. I had my child when I was a councillor and I had to go back a week later, because it was a hung council. Those are the things that need attention. The idea of a different political mindset among men and women is overplayed.

[Mark Pawsey]

My evidence may be anecdotal, but it comes from two councils that I know of. One was quite antagonistic, and women were under-represented. The other was in Rugby and it was rather more gentle, partly, I felt, because power had gone through different groups and coalitions so we worked more consensually. I thought it was a more attractive council chamber to be involved in, and we had a far larger proportion of women. I simply make that observation.

We need to give councillors real power. The Localism Act 2011 has been mentioned. For far too long, all councillors did was rubber-stamp policy that came from Government. I remember having Hobson’s choice about what action to take. Not doing what the Government wanted would mean not getting the grant that would enable something to happen. Under the current cabinet model, cabinet members have executive power and are actively involved in the council; but council back benchers have little role. They sit on scrutiny committees and can make recommendations, but it is hard to get things done. That is why the Government should be applauded for the 2011 Act, which gives power back to councillors and councils. I hope and expect that the additional powers that councils have will lead many people with more senior roles in the community to put their names forward.

I want to consider the accessibility of councillors. Often, particularly in a two-tier authority, people do not know which councillor is responsible for what, and often they will therefore not go to their councillor to solve a problem. It has been mentioned that MPs get letters about potholes, roads, road lighting, parking and planning—things that are not within our control—and we should tell those correspondents “Go to your local councillor, who is someone who can deal with that.” My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) made a valuable point about multi-member wards, where the disconnect is even greater. With single-member wards, an effort to convey to people the responsibilities of their councils, and councils that made themselves more accessible, things would work better. I was interested by the remarks of the hon. Member for Croydon North, who spoke about a councillor’s satisfaction at solving a problem. We can all identify with that, but it struck me that the benefits matter in question was more likely to be a national issue than a local council one. That is the reverse of the experience I have been describing, which is probably more the norm.

We have had a useful report and debate. I hope that we have recognised the important and active role that councillors play, and that some of our recommendations will be taken forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I congratulate the Select Committee on an interesting and worthwhile report and on the innovative methods it used to get evidence. I also congratulate the Committee on securing the debate. We have had an interesting discussion, with thoughtful speeches from Members on both sides, whose experience of local government was evident.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) made it clear, in opening the debate, that we need to understand how the role of a councillor is changing, and the greater demands that are made now. He also explained the need for a different mindset in some councillors, and different ways of engaging with the community. He raised the interesting issue of why people do not stand for election to the council. We heard several reasons, but one is simply confidence. We must demystify local government. I have asked people in community groups and my trade union why they do not run for the council. They say, “I can’t do that,” and I reply, “You represent the community now, don’t you? You take up issues on people’s behalf. You have the skills.” We must get over to people how important that experience is.

The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) made some important points about the ability to take decisions. Improving the quality of representation in local government is also about giving local government the right to make some proper decisions. It is a chicken and egg situation. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) made an important point about how expectations are increasing while resources are being reduced, which creates a dilemma for all councillors. The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) talked about getting people in employment to participate—and about the need for a sense of humour, which is also essential in this place. A good friend of mine used to say, “You should always take your politics seriously, but you should never take yourself too seriously.”

The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), in a thoughtful and considered speech, drawing on his experience, talked, as did the hon. Member for Cleethorpes, about adapting to the cabinet system in local government, and the need for training for councillors. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) discussed how to encourage people to come forward and about the need, mentioned by other hon. Members, for councils to consider their own procedures—to think about when they hold meetings and whether some of them are unnecessary.

When I was first elected to this place, I was always being invited to briefings by local government officers. Eventually, I said, “Put it on paper. I can read. If there is anything I want to ask you afterwards, I will tell you. If anything is unclear, I will let you know.” Someone could quite easily spend the whole time going to briefings with the same small group, but hardly ever interacting with constituents. That is something we all need to avoid.

The Select Committee and those who have spoken today have all made important points about the change in the role of councillors, the greater demands on them and the wider political and social context in which they now operate. Times have changed. We no longer have a system in which MPs go back to their constituency once a quarter, hold a surgery and go away again. Similarly, for local councillors it is no longer simply a matter of getting elected and waiting until they have to stand again. Local government could have a vital role to play in bridging the gap that has developed between people in the community and politicians. Councillors could be central to that, if we get it right—but it is important to get it right.

We have to recognise, as was said earlier, that the scale of the cuts to local government funding instituted by the Government has made it extraordinarily hard for local councillors to deliver the services that they know are needed. Even the Local Government Association, which is Conservative controlled, has estimated that the gap will be £16.5 billion by 2019. Furthermore, in those areas most in need, the cuts are relatively bigger: the 10 most deprived local authorities in the country are taking cuts six times greater than the 10 least deprived. In such circumstances, it is right to pay tribute to local councillors throughout the country, who are struggling to square the circle and having to take unpalatable decisions every day. Before I go any further, I want to put on the record my appreciation of their work.

The thrust of the Select Committee report is, rightly, about looking to the future. We need to ensure that people from all sections of the community contribute to decisions about that community. It is vital that we encourage more young people, more people from minority ethnic communities and more people of working age to become councillors. As has been said frequently, the average age of councillors is now 60. I am sure that lots of them are doing a good job, but councils need to look more like the communities that they serve. We need to ensure that that happens.

In visits around the country, I have been fortunate to meet some excellent young local councillors—in particular, some excellent young women, some of whom I am sure will go on to become council leaders in future. In my own constituency, I am fortunate to see a number of good younger people putting themselves forward to stand as councillors and to go on our party’s panel. “Younger”, however, is a relative term. I often describe people as young, only to realise that they are married, settled and with a couple of kids; they are not that young in the overall sense. We need to encourage such people—more parents and parents of young children.

I have a story to tell about when I was first elected to the council. I was single, but got married during that time and gave birth to my son. As I said earlier, I had to be back early, and I remember asking the officers, “How do I get a pram up there in that building, if I need to?” The officer looked at me as if the words “pram” or “baby” were in a foreign language—“Why would you want to do that? We have never had it before.” The answer is, “Well, you have got it now.” Councils have got to adapt their procedures to accommodate the people whom we want to be on the council, not the other way about.

In the north-west, we have—and, I hope, will continue to have—some good women council leaders, such as in Burnley and Lancashire, which spring to mind. I remember when Lancashire was run by a formidable trio of women: one is now my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman); its chair of social services became my hon. Friend the Member for the then constituency of Blackpool North and Fleetwood; and its chair of education is now Baroness Farrington.

That was an extraordinarily well run council, with a trio of formidable women at the top—but that is rare, an exception and why we remember it. That is not how things should be. Not enough young people or women are coming forward to be councillors, and we all as political parties must take responsibility for tackling that, changing the culture inside our parties to get more people from all sorts of walks of life to participate.

The Committee rightly highlights the needs of councillors in employment. I am sad that the Government chose to ignore some of the recommendations in their response, because we need to convince employers—as someone said earlier—of the benefits of having a councillor staff member, because of the skills that people pick up and the knowledge of the community that they gain, which can be of huge benefit to the employer, not a burden. It needs to be seen as such. There are problems in small businesses and so on, and we must strive to overcome that. It is not easy, but unless we tackle the problem, we simply will not have a representative local democracy, which is vital to us all.

The report also highlighted the need for proper training and support for councillors, who after all are doing a difficult job, making decisions that affect people’s lives and spending millions of pounds of public money. Political parties, councils and representative bodies such as the LGA all have a duty to make that happen, through training for people before they become councillors and ongoing training afterwards, so that they have the necessary knowledge and skills to carry out their duties. I agree with what has been said in the debate: if we do not train councillors properly, we get officer-led authorities, instead of member-led authorities, which is bad for democracy.

The Government have said, rather foolishly, about councillors, “They are all volunteers; we do not want to professionalise them.” The argument about training, however, is not about whether someone is a full or part-time councillor; it is about whether someone has the knowledge and skills to do the job properly. Training is not about professionalising the role—we can have all those arguments about who needs to be full time and who does not, and I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow East that leaders of local authorities, certainly the big ones, are in effect full time—but about ensuring that duties are carried out effectively. Roger Bannister was not a professional runner, as the Minister might remember, but he still needed to be trained properly to run a sub-four-minute mile. It is the same for everyone else.

Allowances are much more contentious. All councils must bear in mind that at the moment most people’s incomes are being restricted, while their standard of living is falling. In the longer term, yes, of course it is right—we need a system that does not deter people in employment from standing for the local authority. I, too, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East, remember when councillors got loss of earnings, but councils now must bear in mind the economic situation. We do not want to argue that there is one rule for constituents and another rule for the political class, whether amateur or professional—if we can make that distinction, which I do not think we can.

Most of all, we need to accept the role of local councillors in making decisions that are right for their local communities. I agree with what has been said, but the Secretary of State is sometimes what might be described as conflicted. On the one hand, he says that he is in favour of localism, but, on the other, he cannot stop interfering, whether about bin collections, parking on double yellow lines or what he described recently as the scourge of bin blight. He has to find another scourge every week—I am a little concerned about him.

Talking about localism is not enough, however; the Secretary of State has taken a lot more power to himself. The Local Government Finance Act 2012 gave him huge powers, while the Local Audit and Accountability Bill will even give him power to decide what councils publish—“Pickles the censor”, up there with his blue pencil, deciding what fits with his code. That is despite the fact that there have been few complaints about council publications. We all know that most of them simply say when the tea dance is going on, what is happening at the sport and recreation centre, and so on.

In contrast, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) made it clear that we want radical devolution of power to local communities, including power over transport, infrastructure, skills and economic development. However, that devolution of power will make it even more incumbent on local authorities to ensure that they have councillors with the right skills who are representative of their community. It is a chicken and egg issue: as more power is devolved, more people will be interested in standing for local authorities, but we must ensure that those authorities are truly representative of their communities and that councillors are properly trained to carry out their role. Otherwise, we will let down the very communities that people hope to serve.

The Select Committee has made a thoughtful and constructive contribution to the debate and I welcome that. The debate will continue. As the hon. Member for Harrow East said, there is much more work to do. If we are honest, there is much more work to do throughout all political parties to try to get it right. Local councils can play a vital role in re-engaging our communities with the political process, allowing them to see how they can influence what happens and the decisions about their lives. We neglect them at our peril because they can be a bridge back to community engagement with politics as a whole.

I hope that the Minister will say something positive about the Select Committee’s report and how we go on from there because it has done a very good job, on which it should be congratulated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He reminds me of my time as a councillor, when I would—Members touched on this issue earlier—sit in meetings with council officers. Occasionally, they would, I do not doubt, be blaming somebody unfairly, but they would certainly use the opportunity to say to members that if we did not take a certain action it would upset the Audit Commission, that it would not help us with our comprehensive area assessment—or something else that the normal public do not care about or understand, and nor should they, because it is usually wasting their money—and that the Government will pull part of our grant from somewhere else.

That is why taking away ring-fencing was so important. I appreciate that the hon. Member for Croydon North and other Opposition Members have commented on how important that was. It is also why it was important that we got rid of some of the burdens—not only such things as the standards committees, but the Audit Commission itself and the way it worked. The hon. Member for Warrington North commented that we have the Local Audit and Accountability Bill, which is the final nail in getting rid of the Audit Commission, coming to us very soon. She commented on the Secretary of State’s powers, and I hope to be able to convince her, through the process of the Bill, that it is the right thing to do. It is already part of the code anyway, but she should look carefully at some of the authorities out there that are wasting taxpayers’ money on wholly inappropriate literature. We will talk about that, no doubt, in the months ahead.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East is right in talking about how council officers will use funding. I have spent part of today talking about this very issue. Opposition Members have made the point about council funding and how it has changed. The challenge I put to the local government sector is that it is difficult for the general public to give that real credibility, until we can see every council involved. There are great councils doing great, innovative work to make sure that they are being efficient, but there are still lots of councils out there that have not looked at everything they can do, in terms of front-line services, innovation and shared management, and cracking down on the £2 billion of uncollected council tax and the £2 billion worth of fraud and error. Councils have increased their reserves by another £3 billion in the last year alone to a record high of £19 billion. That money should be going to ensure that we have great front-line services and innovation.

[Helen Jones]

As the Minister will remember from our discussions on the Local Government Finance Bill, the warnings came frequently that because of the uncertainty of the system he was introducing, local authority treasurers would be advising local councils to increase their reserves. That is exactly what has happened.